Bridging Cultures: Exploring Nuances Between International and Domestic Students

(Transcripts may contain a few typographical errors due to audio quality during the podcast recording.)

[00:00:00] Brittany: Hello, everyone. I’m your host, Brittany Jacob. And you’re listening to Belonging@Haas, the B-School MBA podcast. This is a Berkeley MBA student-led podcast focused on diversity, equity, inclusion, justice, and belonging — DEIJB, for those who may not know. We’re here to share student perspectives and expert advice, tapping into new viewpoints, and engaging in open and honest conversations that foster a welcoming and inclusive environment.

Now, our goal is for everyone to feel valued, first and foremost, and empowered to succeed. In this podcast, diverse perspectives are celebrated and differences are embraced. Belonging@Haas is a part of a race inclusion initiative course project at the Haas Business School and developed in partnership with the Haas MBA Student Government Association.

Together, we’re committed to creating a more inclusive and equitable community at Haas and beyond. So, let’s get into it!

The episode titled Bridging Cultures: Exploring the Nuances Between Asian and Asian American Students is meant to foster a deeper understanding of the diverse student body at Haas, specifically, through discussions about different backgrounds and experiences of Asian and Asian American students.

Now, why does this episode matter for Haas? Asians are the fastest growing racial and ethnic group in the United States. According to Pew Research Center, more than 24 million Americans trace their roots to more than 20 countries in East and Southeast Asia and the Indian subcontinent. Now, Asian and Asian American students form a significant portion of the Haas student body. We’re talking more than 20% of this year’s class. And while there may seem to be shared experiences based on physical appearances, this episode aims to shed light on the distinct backgrounds and experiences that shape the lives of these students that we call our friends.

Now, as a team, we believe that exploring the differences between Asian and Asian American students is crucial for fostering a deeper understanding for our diverse community, especially considering recent upticks in Asian discrimination. This episode aims to just, again, spark a meaningful conversation and promote empathy and inclusivity.

Today, we are thrilled to welcome two remarkable students from Haas, Ken Mizuno and Tori Fukumitsu, who are here to deep dive into their unique experiences as Asian and Asian American students. Now, I’m going to start the conversation off, and I’d love for you both to just share a little bit about how you identify, culturally and personally. What are some of the, like, key aspects of your background that have shaped who you are today? Let’s start with Ken.

[00:02:58] Ken: Sure. I identify me as an Asian, Japanese. I mean, Japanese Japanese. I’m not Asian American. I was born in Japan, raised in Japan, and then I came to the United States last year. So, I just spent one year in the United States, and this is my first experience living in the United States.

Although I spent part of my childhood in Saudi Arabia, I mainly spend my whole life in Japanese-dominant community. Even in Saudi Arabia, I went to a Japanese school. So, I would say this is my first time to exposure, really, such a, like, diverse community as UC Berkeley Haas. And actually, this is one of my reasons why I came here for my MBA. I wanted to expand my cultural, like, horizon in being a part of a diverse community like UC Berkeley. And yeah, I came here. Then, yeah, I experienced multiple global consulting assignments, but still, I have some chance to lead a really diverse team member. So, I want to experience more, like, leadership in diverse environment.

[00:04:11] Brittany: I love that. This is where you came to Haas, to expand. Nice to understand a little bit more about you. What about you, Tori?

[00:04:18] Tori: Yeah, thanks, Brittany. I think, for me, in terms of both cultural and personal identity, so I’m Japanese and Chinese American. I’m fourth gen, both Japanese and Chinese American. And I think, in a lot of ways, that’s how I define myself. That’s how I identify. When you ask me, like, “Tell me about yourself,” that’s one of the first things that I say, whether it’s related specifically to ethnic racial identity or if it’s just a normal question. It’s interesting because that wasn’t always something that I felt like I embraced.

Just to give you a little bit of context, my great grandfather on my mom’s side, on the Chinese side of my family, immigrated here as a paper son, so that basically meant that they had to falsify their name in order to be able to come here because there was the Chinese Exclusion Act. On my dad’s side, on the Japanese side, my family was in farming for several decades. And both sides of my dad’s parents were in the internment camps. And so, there was, sort of, this ingrained historical rejection of the cultural identity and my heritage. I grew up not speaking either language. My parents both spoke English. They have very, sort of, Westernized names.

And I think it came to a head a little bit in high school where I was going to a fairly racially diverse high school here in the Bay Area. But I remember being in the car with my dad and I told him that I wished I wasn’t Asian. I wished I wasn’t Asian at all, is what I told him. And I went from that point to then subsequently going to a predominantly white institution for college. And these experiences just started to, like, change the way in which I was thinking about my Asian American identity, something that I really rejected for a lot of my life, to wanting to learn more about what that actually meant.

I feel like I’m on, like, the reclamation arc at this moment. I’m trying to get a better understanding of what this actually means for me. I’ve been trying to learn Japanese. I also want to learn Chinese as well. So, I feel like I’m on a journey with this.

[00:06:07] Brittany: You know, again, whether you were raised in an Asian country or here in America or you’re Asian raised in another country, there are similarities and differences. Can you share, each of you, share a personal experience where you felt a disconnect or a misunderstanding due to cultural differences between Asian and Asian American students? And that can be here at Haas, or even, like, growing up, Tori, like you mentioned, the Bay Area.

[00:06:35] Tori: Yeah, definitely experienced this growing up, but I think, actually, there’s, like, a pretty salient example that happened pretty recently. So, a friend, a Chinese classmate, and I, we were having lunch and I had brought my food in. And my friend said, “Oh, you’re always cooking white people food.” And, you know, it’s my friend, so I give that person a bit of a benefit of the doubt of what that means. But I was thinking about it more and I think that there’s something underlying that about what it means to be truly Asian and not, in the U.S., and especially for me growing up here in the Bay Area, I felt that Asians were very often othered. So, seen as foreign, seen as different, not American, right? It was Asian American. It wasn’t American first.

So, there’s that type of othering that I felt like I’ve experienced since I’ve grown up, but then there’s this other type of othering where I’m not fully accepted by folks who are from, necessarily, like, the countries in which my ancestors are from. In general, that is not the case. But I think it just speaks to, still, some of the difference that exists between what it does mean to grow up in the U.S. versus in one of those countries.

[00:07:41] Brittany: Ken, when you’re hearing that, does that align? What are some differences or even your own perspective around disconnect?

[00:07:50] Ken: This question is a little bit challenging to me. From my perspective, I feel more, like, similarity rather than, like, disconnect or misunderstanding each other. Speaking of Tori, for me, he’s really Asian, truly Asian. Like, I feel some, like, language barrier, still, but culture-wise, he’s so humble, caring person, like, easy to talk. And cuisine-wise, we sometimes have dinner, like, lunch. His, like, taste of cuisine is really, like, Japanese, I think. And sometimes he’s more familiar with Japanese music, Japanese pop culture. So, I feel like other, like, Asian American people are really, culture-wise, I don’t feel any disconnection or, like, feel… They are more, like, Asian than me sometimes.

[00:08:36] Brittany: That’s interesting. And when you say they are more Asian, are you talking about more of the Asian American community at Haas?

[00:08:43] Ken: Sometimes, yes, beyond, like, Asian community, I try to go to, like, any ethnicity gathering. In that perspective, I feel like, sometimes, I’m not Asian. Sometimes, I’m more assertive. Sometimes, I speak up more than, like, other Asian people. American Asian people are really humble, sometimes more humble than, like, international Asian.

[00:09:06] Brittany: Tori, I see you shaking your head. What are you thinking?

[00:09:09] Tori: Yeah, it’s interesting because I think that there’s been some cases where, for example, in class, say, a Japanese or Chinese student will say like, “Oh, that’s, like, a very Japanese thing to do, or that’s a very Chinese thing to do.”

In particular, with Japanese and Chinese, because I’m Japanese and Chinese American, I feel like I have some affinity towards that, or, like, I can understand it a bit. But that’s not necessarily something that’s been, like, immediately accessible to me, in some ways. So, I have not always known what that really means to be, like, truly Japanese or truly Chinese. And I don’t even necessarily think that actually exists in the same way it’s, like, truly American. But I do think that there is something that I feel like I have to navigate as an Asian American person around being able to have a level of proximity with people who are from one of these countries that I’m ultimately rooted back to and connected to but never really lived there, never really experienced what it was like growing up.

And so, as a result, I do feel, not necessarily from any one individual, or it’s not necessarily at that personal level, but more so, maybe, at more, like, a population level at times, I feel a little bit of a sense of exclusion from what it truly means to be truly Asian or truly Japanese, even though that to me is, perhaps, a mirage. It’s not actually something that truly exists.

[00:10:29] Brittany: I hear you saying exclusion and navigating. Have those experiences where you felt excluded really shaped your understanding of Asian Americans or even Asians coming from Asian countries?

[00:10:44] Tori: Yeah, definitely. And so, I’m a co-president for the Asian American club at Haas. And we’re a pretty inclusive club in the sense that you don’t have to be Asian American to join the club. In fact, we have a lot of Asians who this is the first time they’re ever living in the U.S. and they’re board members of our club. But when I’m particularly talking to Asian American students, other Asian American students, one of the things that tends to really connect us or be a form of bonding is the shared experience around, exactly as you said, Brittany, like, exclusion or navigating some sort of barrier as it relates to our identity.

I think, by and large, a lot of the students have experienced, in a variety of different settings, this type of rejection of your Asian identity, whether you’re Vietnamese American or whatever your identity is. And that feels almost like the commonality, like, a shared negative experience and being able to circumvent and overcome that.

And so, it’s interesting because it’s a negative experience. And so, it feels almost like it’s a deficit-based foundation of a relationship in some ways or a connection, but it’s something that’s so important, also, in understanding what it means to operate here in America and to identify. So, it’s very complicated, but I think it’s something that I’m still working through and still trying to understand.

[00:12:04] Ken: I found some difference between, maybe, me and Tori, because my experience is like I came here before getting, like, matured. I worked in Japan. And after that, I came here for MBA. So, speaking of, like, more exclusive perspective, I mean, people already like inclusives in MBA because people are matured, but I think Tori’s experience, maybe, in his childhood Asian Americans experience in, like, school is totally different from my experience. Like, my experience is, like, derived from, like, job interview or but… that’s not so serious, like, problem. But Tori’s experience is more, like, a problem of identity. So, that experience spawned Asian American people. And that experience is not applicable to me. I haven’t experienced it yet. So, that’s a difference, I think.

[00:13:00] Brittany: You know, this, kind of, is a great segue into my next question, just around stereotypes and assumptions about Asian and Asian American students. Talking about jobs in the job market, we’re here, we’re getting our MBA, we all are here to get a job, whether to pivot into a new industry or enhance our resume, would you say that you’ve encountered any stereotypes while being here at Haas or just in general in the business school program?

[00:13:31] Ken: Definitely. Stereotype expectation for me is, “Oh, you’re Japanese, you’re punctual, tidy person. You like sushi, anime, not speaking up in the meeting, not directly say something.” That’s, I think, typical expectation or bias towards, like, Japanese people in general. And that influenced my communication to be, like, Japanese. I mean, I’m not that kind of person but I sometimes pretend, like, super Japanese person, to be, like, super polite, but I’m not, like, actually not so punctual person, honestly. But sometimes, that’s not my real, like, figure. After getting used to the lifestyle in the United States, I try to be more, like, true myself, a bit beyond the expectations.

I have some Westernized aspect in nature, maybe. But when people have expectation to me as a Japanese, I cannot expose that aspect. That’s a gap between myself and expectation. I sometimes try to expose that aspect.

[00:14:38] Brittany: Tori, I heard Ken say being punctual, being tidy, being polite, watching anime, eating sushi, does that align with some of the experiences and stereotypes that you’ve also seen, or is it different, being Asian American?

[00:14:53] Tori: Yeah, that’s a really good question, and I think there’s definitely some similarities and, maybe, a few differences. One thing on Ken’s point around expectations, that, for example, you are X identity and so you must like Y, I think that that ties, for me, to this idea that, often, it feels like Asians are grouped together or considered as a monolith, that we all enjoy the same things, we all have similar interests, we all have certain behaviors that we exhibit.

And I think the reality is that, not only are the countries so different across all these different countries, but within that, there’s so much nuance in identity, in heritage, in culture, in an individual. And I think the harmful effect of this is that I think this is potentially one of those pieces that’s slightly different, is that, in the U.S., there is a lot of stereotypes around Asian men, in particular, being seen as more meek or seen as less assertive. And it’s tied to this idea, I think, of the bamboo ceiling as well, that, essentially, Asian Americans, and in our cases, Asian American men, can’t advance past certain levels in their careers, in part because they’re lacking some sort of inherent skill or ability to be more confident or more assertive or more dominant when that’s what’s required in business settings, for example.

And so, in the MBA, I feel like I’m often trying to be mindful of that expectation as almost like I’m expecting that someone else is expecting that of me. And so, as a result, I’m trying to play more into the opportunities to be more assertive or to raise my hand more or to speak and have my voice heard.

The one other thing I wanted to mention, too, is that, going back to what Ken said around expectations, there are times in which, because I look Asian, there’s an assumption that I can speak to a certain experience. For example, the other day, a professor looked at my name tag and asked what it was like growing up in Japan. And I didn’t grow up in Japan, so I don’t know what that was like. And it was just, you know, it was a little bit of an awkward moment, but it was just more so, I think, a bit of a reflection that it’s so easy to automatically assume that, just based on your exterior, that you must then have this experience, just as Ken was saying. Beyond just, like, the uncomfortable moment that, kind of, creates for me and for other people, it’s, I think, more of a reflection of just broader patterns that can tend to be more malicious.

So, in that particular case with that professor, I don’t think there was any negative intent, any maliciousness. I think it was just a pure mistake. But there’s other cases in which, say, it’s you and another candidate, right, maybe a white candidate, and there’s certain expectations that a hiring manager might place on what you are and are not able to do relative to this other candidate. That could ultimately negatively impact you. There’s lots of ways in which these types of expectations can actually have harmful effects. In that particular case, I didn’t really take much offense to that, but it was just, it was a moment where, like, I paused and I was thinking, “Who else would necessarily have had that type of experience in the classroom in that way? And is there something about, in particular, being Asian and Asian American that lends itself more to that type of error or, like, mistake?”

[00:17:59] Brittany: Ken, do you have any thoughts just around how any of these stereotypes have affect your interactions with any of your classmates or friends?

[00:18:08] Ken: Most of the time, I don’t feel any, like, harmful effect for my interaction, like, from that bias. Other than, like, a downside, it’s, like, helpful for me, kind of, like, trigger to start a conversation. “Oh, you’re Japanese, x, x, x,” then I can, like, easily answer to that. But yeah, sometimes, it is too much. Like, I feel like the person is putting pressure on me, like, being Asian or Japanese, then I have to pretend super Japanese-like person. Sometimes, I feel that. But most of the time, it’s more, like, a, like, helpful for me to start a conversation.

[00:18:45] Tori: Just to add to that, because Ken, I thought that was, like, a really interesting point. I think that one thing that can be a challenge at times is, when you’re expected to, sort of, uphold or reflect a broader population, so, say it’s Japanese, right, you’re supposed to act Japanese in someone else’s eye. That’s, kind of, in a frame of the other person’s consumption. In a lot of ways, it’s like they’re consuming something about your culture, right? It’s, like, whether it’s the food or it’s the music or whatever it is, versus, like, really trying to understand and get to know you as an individual. And I think that that’s, to me, the, like, most potentially harmful aspect of this is, it’s not always the best foundation for actually building a relationship and developing closeness.

And so, as a result, you might be included in things just because of your identity or just because you are Japanese. But true inclusion and a true sense of belonging to, sort of, the theme of this podcast, to me, it goes beyond that. It takes understanding of identity. It takes understanding of difference, but also of, like, truly understanding, who is this other person? What is it that they’re actually individually interested in? What is it that they fear? What do they need, et cetera? So, to me, it takes a lot more work to get there. And without that, I think these relationships can be very fragile or ephemeral.

[00:19:58] Brittany: Man, I feel like you both are my friends and I’m even learning more about you. To your point, it takes time to build relationships. And, like you said, Tori, just going beyond that superficial conversation, which, kind of, segues me into this, like, practical guidance section. What advice would you give students, classmates, friends from different cultural backgrounds to foster a stronger connection and understanding with you?

[00:20:26] Ken: Yeah. Nowadays, I’m thinking of this problem. And then, my way is just skipping any, like, Japanese-related conversation, like, dive into the other part, like, cultural conversation or, like, more personal thing beyond any, like, ethnicity-related topics. Last year was my first year in the United States, and then I was, like, kind of, leveraging my identity as Japanese. Like, for example, like, hosting sushi party, like, hosting Japan trek with 80 people, like, classmates. Then, that was a good trigger. But I felt like I’m pushing too much my identity as a Japanese, then I don’t want to do too much anymore. Now, I try to, like, have a conversation totally irrelevant to, like, any ethnicity-related, Japanese-related, or more, like, understanding personal thing, like, job, dating situation, or catching up, anything.

[00:21:25] Brittany: Wow. So, I was going to mention that, Ken, the fact that you hosted one of the most popular treks here in our MBA program, you, along with Tsubasa and a few others, you guys hosted a Japan trek, which, of course, I did not get the opportunity to go in. But, you know, I do think that, what I hear you saying is that just, kind of, skip over the Japanese conversation, skip over the cultural conversation and get to know you a little bit better for who you are and things you like. And Tori, I see you shaking your head. I guess that aligns with what you’re also going to say.

[00:22:04] Tori: Yeah, definitely. To build on what Ken said, the advice is to approach relationship-building from true inquiry and curiosity. So, I’m a peer advisor right now for social impact and, also, for fintech. And I’ve been talking to lots of first-years about how to approach networking. And it’s, kind of, a similar thing, too. You could think about it on one hand as like a transaction, and on another way, you can actually try to build a relationship with someone. And in that way, you can also share a lot more about who you are as well.

I think there’s a bit of a framework at times. And I should say I think of this because I think I fall into it, too, a framework around, like, expertise as it comes to identity that, like, you’re either on one end or the other. You’re either, like, an expert on an identity or you’re, like, a novice or someone who doesn’t have expertise. And I think, instead, it’s more, like, we’re all learning about what it means to be our different identities. We’re all exploring that.

To go back to what we talked about earlier, it’s not that there’s, like, a true Asian or a true American or true Japanese, necessarily. There can’t be, because there’s so much diversity within that. So, I think of how often I need to personally not just diminish what I’ve experienced as, “oh, that’s not Japanese,” or, “that’s not Chinese American,” or, “that’s not Chinese,” because I didn’t grow up in China, but rather, like, “oh, there are things about my unique experience that speak to something that, perhaps, someone else might not be able to speak to, or they can. But to not think of it as such a binary, I think, is ultimately what I’m trying to say.

[00:23:25] Brittany: I’m curious, what are some ways to celebrate and appreciate the diversity within the community for those around you?

[00:23:33] Tori: I think there’s both formal and informal ways. So, like, a more formal way is we have the culture capsules that are run by the local student government and it was a way to effectively highlight and celebrate the cultures of folks from individual countries. That’s been, I think, one good way to just learn a little bit more. Obviously, in an MBA program, as probably other school programs, a lot centers around food and attracting people through your food. But what I really like about the culture capsules is that it’s usually accompanied with some sort of share-out of, either, some slides that someone’s created, and, “here’s a little bit to learn about my country, about my own personal experience.” There’s been, like, performances. There’s been other types of activities that surround it.

And so, it’s just really like a slice. Like, you can’t really get that much out of just, like, an hour and a half, but you can learn a little bit, right? And I think that type of exposure and having that type of curiosity to learn is one piece, I think, on the more formal side. And then on the more informal side, I think, of where we are here in the Bay Area, and this is also coming from me personally from growing up here, but there’s just, like, such an interesting and rich history of what it’s meant to be Asian here in the Bay Area. There’s been various forms of exclusion, discrimination. There’s been displacement, but there’s also been a lot of, like, power building and community building as well. And there’s a lot that’s happening right now, whether it’s in San Francisco, it’s in parts of the East Bay, South Bay, et cetera.

And there are ways in which you can learn about that through, like, museums. You can learn about that through different tours. Like, there’s a Filipino arts and culture heritage district in San Francisco that you can go through a tour, and you can learn a lot about these different organizations. There’s also just a lot to learn by just talking to people, too, and, kind of, not treating people as strangers but as people who have lots of experience. And so, I think that’s a little bit more of an informal way that I would think about celebrating the diversity in this community.

[00:25:27] Brittany: And do you have any thoughts around how to celebrate diversity or even campus organizations?

[00:25:33] Ken: Yeah, speaking of formal side, yeah, I agree with Tori, like, culture capsule, like, consumption function, these are really helpful to understand the different culture.

I want to mention the international track. This is really, like, helpful to understand the history of the country, like, what is the country like, and what kind of, like, vibes in each country. Then, yeah, I’m speaking of more, like, international, not only, like, American Asian, but, like, international track is really helpful. Haas students are really keen to advocate each country’s culture. Latino people do their Latino barbecue. We Asians do, like, cuisine party. And Asian cuisine, as Tori mentioned, we prepare, like, some slides for history of the country. What is the context of Southern culture? I’m speaking of, like, already, like, international, not only, like, Asia. Yeah, it’s ethnicity, community, hosts, the country theme, the gathering, or the party. Then, that’s very helpful to understand each culture and get more, like, bonded with, like, different cultural people.

[00:26:46] Brittany: So, it’s been so fruitful, and I have learned so much. Thank you, both, for coming into our pod and sharing your real and authentic insights and, of course, your experiences with us today. It’s been an enlightening conversation. And I believe truly that it will help our listeners better understand the nuances of being either Asian or being an Asian American student at Haas. So, Ken, Tori, thank you so much.

Now, to help us explore these issues further, we are thrilled to welcome Dr. Janine Lee, an expert in DEIJB and organizational leadership.

Dr. Lee, thank you so much for joining us today. How are you?

[00:27:30] Janine Lee: I’m doing great. How are you?

[00:27:33] Brittany: Oh, I’m wonderful. Tell me a little bit about yourself.

[00:27:36] Janine Lee: Yeah. So, I’m a first-generation Chinese American, and I was born and raised in Oakland. My mom is from Macau and immigrated to Hawaii, and my father is from Hong Kong and immigrated to San Francisco. So, growing up in Oakland was really interesting to be in this diverse environment. And I’m what we call an ABC, so an American-born Chinese, juggling both my Chinese identity and my American identity.

I am an EWMBA 2014 Haas grad – go gold — and also a lecturer at Haas. I’ve been lecturing for the last 10 years, and also a global DEIB award winner. So, I graduated from USC with my doctorate in education, focusing on organizational change, leadership, and DEIB. And I recently published my dissertation last year on sense of belonging in the workplace.

[00:28:25] Brittany: Wow. Congratulations! And also, go gold. I got a fellow Goldie here. I’m also part of the gold cohort. Welcome to our pod.

Well, as you heard Tori and Ken talked a lot about the concept of Asian enough and how Asians are often perceived as a monolithic group, Dr. Lee, could you elaborate on these ideas and how they can impact the wellbeing of Asians?

[00:28:52] Janine Lee: Yeah. So, let me first break down your comment into two different pieces, the Asian enough and the monolithic piece. The Asian enough piece, Tori and Ken alluded to this, that, in the past, Asians were othered because they weren’t seen as American, so they had to assimilate. And then as a result, they might not have felt Asian enough with their Asian counterparts. So, part of this juggling this dual identity becomes a bit of code-switching. Code-switching, if you’re not aware, is the practice of changing languages or dialects within a single conversation. And it’s how someone adjusts how they present themselves in different contexts. So, being Asian American or being Asian, you might be adjusting depending on the population that you’re hanging out with. And from a wellbeing perspective, it can be really tiring. It’s like multitasking your personality and going back and forth from different identities.

[00:29:44] Brittany: That’s interesting. You know, one of the common stereotypes associated with Asians are, again, that they’re this, as even Tori mentioned, this, like, monolithic group, maybe, that’s quiet or soft-spoken, academically-driven. There were these stereotypes that Ken and Tori had mentioned. And we know that 20 million people of the Asian descent come from all over. I mean, we’re talking more than, like, 20 countries and have a very, very diverse lived experience. How do these stereotypes contribute to the pressure to conform and the fear of not actually fitting in sometimes?

[00:30:22] Janine Lee: So, it happens all the time. And it’s about assumptions that are being made about who you are, your identity, and blanket statements. So, it happens to me when someone says, “Oh, you’re Chinese. So, do you speak Mandarin?” And I’m like, “No, actually, I don’t speak Mandarin. I’m Cantonese-speaking. My family is not from mainland China.” It’s very different growing up in Hong Kong and Macau and having to explain all that. So, it definitely gets tiring from a wellbeing perspective to have to continue to educate and continue to correct. And sometimes, it can even feel like a microaggression. So, it could feel like some type of subtle or unintentional discrimination, like, “Oh, it must be rough for you in class because English was your second language.” And you’re like, “What are you talking about? I grew up here in America.”

[00:31:07] Brittany: Can you explain to us, what are microaggressions? And how do we see them exist, especially, maybe even on campus, as an MBA or even, maybe, as we go into our jobs?

[00:31:18] Janine Lee: Right. So, it could be anything. It’s a statement, an action, or an incident where there’s indirect, subtle, or unintentional discrimination against a member of a marginalized group. I heard comments earlier in the conversation where the example that was brought up with Tori and Ken was, “Oh, you’re Japanese, so you must like anime.” So, those can easily be perceived as microaggressions because these are these subtle comments that are being made. For me, in particular, a lot of microaggressions I’ve encountered in the workspace have been looking young. And so, I’ve worked in DEI for over 20-plus years, and I still get comments where someone looks at me and they say, “Oh, I’m surprised you’ve been here that long. You look so young. I thought you were a college intern.” And so, I take that as a microaggression because they’re commenting on the way that I look and being of Asian descent that I just naturally look young.

[00:32:13] Brittany: Yeah, no, it’s, by the way, you look great.

[00:32:16] Janine Lee: Thank you.

[00:32:17] Brittany: But I totally understand that. I guess, just taking that question a step further, how does one combat or fight against these microaggressions? If I’m in a classroom or I’m at my new job, just graduated with my MBA, I’m sitting at work and there’s a colleague who I don’t really know that well and they say something that’s, like you said, it’s subtle, it’s maybe not too much, maybe it’s not a lot to go to HR about, but, you know, it makes you feel a little uncomfortable, what would you say I should do?

[00:32:53] Janine Lee: Yeah. So, the number one thing as a bystander in this situation, if you feel comfortable, is to stop the behavior. So, if you feel uncomfortable, if you feel like something’s wrong, if you feel like it could be a microaggression, likely, the person that’s encountering it is feeling the same. So, what I always recommend is try to stop the behavior immediately, as comfortable as you feel, whether it’s just interjecting into the conversation, distracting the conversation, or just correcting the issue.

So, for example, if someone mispronounces your colleague or a classmate’s name and you know that that is not how that name is pronounced and it oftentimes could be seen as something that is slang or making fun of how somebody’s name is pronounced, you can just stop the behavior and say, “Oh, excuse me. I overheard you having this conversation. Actually, my classmate’s name is XYZ. This is how you properly pronounce the name,” right, without coming in with the savior syndrome, but trying to course-correct the conversation.

[00:33:57] Brittany: I love that you gave this perspective from someone as an ally, because I think that it’s so important in these conversations to realize, to advocate for the people around you. Sometimes it’s not you that’s, maybe, experiencing that microaggression, but you witness it. And so, maybe just, kind of, double-click on why it’s important to have allies and advocates and friends who care.

[00:34:24] Janine Lee: Oh, it’s so important. When you think about belonging in the workplace, right, belonging is when an individual feels accepted, respected, included, and supported by others. And that support is so critical to have allies and friends who could speak up for you when you feel like you don’t have a voice. And individuals may not speak up because they don’t feel comfortable or they feel like they’re not in a position of authority, but when they have that ally in the room with them that’s uplifting their voices, that’s stopping bad behavior, it could be really empowering so they could see how it’s done and do it for themselves in the future.

[00:35:00] Brittany: Yeah, I’ve witnessed it myself, either as an ally or someone stepping up for me. And let me tell you, it does feel good. It makes you almost feel seen. It’s like someone understands your background, they understand you, and it’s like you don’t always have to stand up for yourself because people are paying attention and, kind of, thinking outside of themselves.

Just going back to the question about stereotypes, how can we, again, challenge these stereotypes and embrace individuality? It was so beautiful when Ken mentioned how he wants to challenge the stereotypes by just being more authentic to the things that he likes. So, for Asians themselves, how can they challenge the stereotypes and embrace their individuality and allow people to better understand what they bring to an environment?

[00:35:49] Janine Lee: Yeah, and I think there’s a couple different things that we can talk through here. So, one, there’s cultural tendencies in how Asians or Asian Americans might have been raised. And I really like the book The Culture Map by Erin Meyer. And I do a lot of talks on Western versus Eastern customs. And I think it’s important for you to understand where your superpowers are and not to assume that your cultural tendencies, because you were raised a certain way, are always dominant in one way or another.

So, an example of that is direct versus indirect feedback. And one of the things that Erin Meyer talks about in her book is how Westerners are more around direct feedback. So, they’ll state it to the point and give it to you. Whereas, Easterners are more prone to indirect feedback and they need, like, layered context before you really get to the feedback. And they’re going to do it in a polite and gentle way. Again, this is just based on cultural tendencies and studies in the past, but it’s important to not leverage that as an assumption for yourself if you’re Asian or Asian American or if you’re not Asian or Asian American.

[00:37:00] Brittany: Dr. Lee, thank you so much. Your perspective was super insightful. I guess, before we close, is there anything that I didn’t ask you that’s important to make note for the sake of this conversation in our pod?

[00:37:14] Janine Lee: I think we touched on all of the main points that I wanted to touch on, but I just wanted to reiterate that being an ally can come in different forms, whether it’s speaking up when you see something that’s happening that you don’t think should be happening or that makes you feel uncomfortable, it could be amplifying voices in the room when one of your classmates makes a good comment and it gets to dismissed or it’s not heard in the room because they’re more soft-spoken, it could mean that you’re joining community groups, that you’re volunteering, that you’re really spending the time to educate yourself on different backgrounds. And so, there is not one correct way to be an ally and to not be afraid to just take that first step for what you’re comfortable with.

[00:37:59] Brittany: Thank you. Your expertise has really shed light on just so many nuanced experiences, especially around Asian Americans. And we hope that our listeners will use this information to foster great understanding and empathy. Thank you so much, Dr. Lee.

[00:38:16] Janine Lee: Thank you so much for having me.

[00:38:18] Brittany: And that concludes our episode for today. Be sure to join us next time, as we continue to explore the diverse perspectives within the Haas community. See you, guys.