From Silos to Solidarity: Empowering All Voices and Allyship with Black Colleagues

(Transcripts may contain a few typographical errors due to audio quality during the podcast recording.)

[00:00:00] Brittany: Hey everyone, I’m your host, Brittany Jacob, and you’re listening to Belonging@Haas, the B-School MBA podcast. This is a Berkeley MBA student-led podcast focused on diversity, equity, inclusion, justice, and belonging. We’re here to share student perspectives and expert advice, tapping into new viewpoints and engaging into open, honest conversations that foster a welcoming and inclusive environment.

Now, our goal is for everyone to feel valued and empowered to succeed. In this podcast, diverse perspectives are celebrated and differences are embraced. Belonging@Haas is a part of a race inclusion initiative course project at the Haas Business School, developed in partnership with the Haas MBA Student Government Association. And together, we’re committed to creating a more inclusive and equitable community at Haas and beyond. So, let’s get into it.

This episode titled From Silos to Solidarity: Empowering All Voices and Allyship with Black Colleagues, aims to explore and deepen our understanding of racial identities and grouping. Now, why does this episode matter? Understanding racial identity begins early, often around middle or junior high school. And it’s a particularly poignant journey for children of color, including Black girls. Referencing Beverly Daniel Tatum’s 2020 update of Why Are All Black Kids Black Sitting Together in Cafeteria, there is a critical moment when young Black girls feel a sense of exclusion, when their white peers begin dating, a time when racial differences may actually start to really feel pronounced. Now, this dynamic doesn’t just fade away. It echoes into adulthood, including on business school campuses like ours here at Haas.

As our student body becomes increasingly more diverse, Black students and other minorities continue to seek each other out, forming vital communities through affinity groups. These groups are not just social, they are necessary to support the network that helps minority students thrive in environments that can, at times, just feel really isolating or unwelcoming.

Now, just to get into a couple of stats, at Berkeley, 4% of undergraduate students and 5.2% of graduate students identify as African American. And moreover, 8.6% of staff and 4.5% of all faculty identify as African American or Black. While Haas may seem like a diverse place, clearly, it’s a lot of work that we need to do.

So, we know this topic is top of mind for many students by addressing the controversial question of why Black girls stick together or why any of these racial groups stick together. We aim to unpack that question in this episode, exploring the complex balance between integration and the need for safe places where students can share common experiences and challenges. And we’ll hear from two Haas students about how these dynamics play out in real life, offering a broader understanding of the importance of such communities within our school.

This topic is important in society. We tend to form many assumptions as we navigate social dynamics in new environments. This conversation around minority groups sticking together is something that will be relevant in future work environments. By understanding this intention and reasoning behind this social behavior, it can enable us to be better allies. And overall, just understand the perspective better of our future Black and minority colleagues. Today, we are excited to have two students with us, Princess and Beyoncé, to discuss their experiences as Black females identifying students at Haas. Beyoncé, could you please tell us just a little bit about yourself?

[00:03:48] Beyoncé: Yeah, sure. Hi, everyone. My name is Beyoncé. I’m 25. I’m from Westchester County, New York, which is a small suburban county right outside the city. My dad’s from Jamaica and my mom’s from Puerto Rico. So, I have both Black and Hispanic heritage. And yeah, I came to Haas looking to do a pivot from consulting into media entertainment, because that’s what I’m really interested and passionate about moving forward.

[00:04:15] Brittany: Thank you so much, Beyoncé. Princess, how about you? Tell us a little bit about yourself.

[00:04:19] Princess: Yes. Hi, everyone. So, for me, I’m from Brooklyn, New York. I’m first-generation Nigerian. So, my family are all from Nigeria. I went to Amherst College for a mathematics degree. And I feel like my career journey has been, like, definitely non-linear. So, I started as consulting at Bain & Company and did that for a couple of years and realized I just don’t think I can do this anymore, especially being the only Black woman in my class there. And then I pivoted to join a Black-owned beauty startup where we sold beginner friendly wigs for Black women. So, that was a really fun experience there. And then I, kind of, pivoted to my own entrepreneurship journey and ran a braid and loc salon for Black women in Cambridge, Massachusetts for a few years. And so, I’ve been doing that up until the very last minute to come to Haas.

And so, now at Haas, trying to just explore different career paths within entrepreneurship. Right now, I’m looking into entrepreneurship through acquisition. So, I have an internship doing that. But ultimately, just super excited to delve deeper into entrepreneurship and also working with underrepresented founders and just, like, how can we lead impactful businesses and just really being able to explore that with Haas.

[00:05:23] Brittany: Well, this is amazing. Thank you both for being here today and just willing to chat about this spicy topic. As we get into the topic today, you, kind of, have already introduced us a little bit about Beyoncé, your family being from Jamaica and Puerto Rico, and Princess, your family being from Nigeria. What are some key aspects of your background that have shaped who you are today?

[00:05:45] Beyoncé: So, I identify as a Black and Hispanic woman. We spoke prior to the podcast starting about whether or not I identify as Afro-Latina. For me, I would assume that definition falls under someone that is from a Latinx country or Hispanic country but have African heritage. And my mother, being from Puerto Rico, she, I would say, is pretty white passing. So, I feel like it’s a bit of a weird combination, I guess. But yeah, that’s why I would prefer just to identify as both Black and Hispanic.

But in terms of that, that identity is really important to me. And that definitely has shaped my experience and how I identify myself. I remember, in elementary school, I went to a majority white school, back in elementary school in New York. I was actually the only Black student there from first grade to fifth grade until my sister joined in kindergarten, when I was in fifth grade. So, I remember, having two different ethnicities wasn’t something that was commonplace. And so, I grappled with appearing to be a Black woman but also having this Hispanic identity and how I choose to navigate the world. So, that’s something that I continue to, sort of, question, just because I also, unfortunately, don’t speak Spanish.

So, there’s just another layer to that of the question of, like, how Hispanic or how Latinx are you, knowing that Spanish is such an important part of that identity? And so, that’s something that I just think about every day. And then, just being a Black woman or just other people identifying me as a Black woman that has definitely shaped the way I’ve moved through the world, through the affinity groups that I’m a part of, the DEI work that I do, it’s mainly for Black women. So, really proud to be a Black woman and want to wear that on my chest everywhere I go.

[00:07:31] Brittany: I love that. I love that. And Princess, what about you?

[00:07:35] Princess: Yeah, I definitely can relate to Beyoncé in a lot of different ways. So, I say I’m Nigerian, but also, I really mostly, I think I would just say identify as Black. I think I struggle with saying, well, I’m definitely Nigerian, but I think, kind of, like, similar with Beyoncé, I don’t speak the language as much. I, kind of, struggle with some of the things in my Nigerian family, too. So, and also, too, like, when I grew up in a more predominantly Black neighborhood, we’re African Americans and things of that sort. And so, I think, when I grew up, I pretended I wasn’t Nigerian a lot of the times, because, you know, because it wasn’t, like, the coolest thing in the world. And so, it’s not like, yeah, you know, I’m like, “My mom has accent because she’s Jamaican,” or something like that.

And so, I, kind of, avoided that a little bit growing up. I think, in college, I think that’s when I really started embracing, you know, my identity a bit more, like, joining African American student union and being a bit more excited about that. So, I would definitely say I relate to Beyoncé in that matter too.

And also, I identify as queer as well. I think that’s also really important to my identity because we’re friends and just I really just do embrace what that is. Also, too, like, everything I do, it’s for Black women. When I was at Bain, my recruiting was specifically for Black women to get into consulting. Even though I do care about other people too, I think that’s something that, you know, a lot of times you can fall off on those types of things. And so, I really try to prioritize that. When I joined startup, all the work products were specifically for Black women or fems. My business prioritized Black women. And then the future businesses I want to delve into, I think I really want to prioritize Black women, especially within the beauty space, the textured hair care space. And so, that’s always something I’m thinking about, like, how can I impact Black women’s lives? And how can we have a better future for ourselves? So, yeah.

[00:09:10] Brittany: Speaking of skin color and hair texture and identities, there’s so many aspects of identities when you think about a Black woman. So, it’s really interesting for you all to have so many different identities that you identify with. So, let’s dive in. Can you each share your initial response to this question? Why do all Black girls stick together? What is your initial response when you hear the question? Princess, let’s start with you and then we’ll hear from Beyoncé.

[00:09:35] Princess: Yeah. So, when I initially hear the question, I’m like, why do we stick together? It’s, kind of, like, my first thought. And I think, for me, it’s just happened so naturally. It’s almost like when you put your, you know, tie your shoelaces, you don’t really think about, like, how I’m tying. It just, like, naturally occurs.

And I think, so I grew up in Bed-Stuy before Bed-Stuy got really gentrified. And so, always around Black people. I never been to a startup, some of that, and no middle school was, like, very, like, Black-centered. And I think, when I went to, you know, predominantly white high school, that’s when I really had to come to terms with, oh, wow, like, being one of the few in this environment, I just, like, naturally move to the Black women because that’s just, like, something that I was just so used to in growing up.

But because I started doing it so young, I just continued to find myself pursuing those types of relationships and community. Even when I was in consulting, like, the Blacks at Bain group, it was really important for me and, like, reaching out to being really close to the only other Black woman consultant, associate consultant on the team. And so, I think that was something that I just, now, I just continue to pursue. And I think, for me, it’s really been helpful, navigating a lot of different spaces I find myself in, especially as you, kind of, like, go into, more academia, more corporate environments and more of these other larger institutions.

[00:10:45] Brittany: Hey, I really hear you saying there’s a comfort level with people who may not only identify with similar, like I said, similar identities to you, but there is a discomfort level with people who share some of the same things that you may like or come from the similar communities. Beyoncé?

[00:10:55] Beyoncé: I feel similarly to Princess, in my, like, current day and age and,post college now here at Haas, where I have a natural inclination just to gravitate towards, fellow Black women the Black community. But I do think my journey to getting to that point was an active effort for me, given I was in majority white spaces from elementary school up until I graduated high school. Having that experience in elementary school being the only Black person, all five years, there wasn’t really someone I could gravitate towards. So, I definitely think during that time, there are definitely aspects of my identity that I probably, you know, sunsetted or elevated others just so that I could connect with the other white students in my class.

So, yes, that was elementary school. And then I remember, going to, a PWI, uh, for high school predominately white institution for high school, and they’re also not having as many, Black students, Black women, but there were definitely more.

So, I was just excited that I was not the only one. but, I do think I initially had this fear or just a unawareness of how I’d be received. just because I was so used to being in. predominantly white environments. And so, I think that was a process of me, sort of, unlearning any bias or the behaviors that I had, coming from just growing up in white suburbia.

And then by the time I graduated high school. I was pretty much just, like, I’m done with these white spaces. I want to center myself and my community. And I basically entered Amherst college being, like, I don’t want a single white friend. I only want a cohort or a community of people that look like me.

And I just, I think I just wanted to. I wanted to feel safe, and for me that meant making a commitment to learn more about the Black community. What does it mean to be Black? Black culture. And so, I feel, like, I really did a deep dive. I feel, like, I really, spent that time obviously building connections, but also just doing my own research.

So, that could feel like I belonged. And so, for me, that meant either, joining the Black student union, being president of our only Black residential hall. yeah, just trying to feel more comfortable within myself and my own identity, and then being a space for others to come to me as well.

So, now finally at Haas, I feel. gravitating toward other people that look like me. It’s second nature now. I’m the first to be like, “Where’s my cohort? Where are my girls?” I’m really proud of myself for that journey and getting to that spot, cause I just feel a lot more safe and comfortable within myself and then those around me.

[00:13:35] Brittany: That’s so interesting you use the words rest and safe, and I often feel, like, non minorities or white individuals often don’t realize the stress of alienation of their colleagues of color. And it’s so interesting that there was this journey of being the only, whether it was the only in your institution, the only on your job, and just, like, what that may feel, like, again, being with people who look like you and having that be a safe space. And so, that’s so interesting. And I’m going to throw in a little bit of a curve ball question. When we think about acceptance and alienation, if you can briefly give me an example, has there ever been a moment where you felt, like, you were accepted or maybe a moment where you felt, like, get a little bit alienated, which maybe made you want to go into being a part of more of a Black female group or just a Black group in general.

[00:14:33] Beyoncé: I think my time in middle school and elementary school in particular, being the only one, I think there was point where I realized, the friendships that I had around me were pretty, weren’t that strong and I feel, like, I had a really a bit of a difficult time connecting with other people in my class to the point where I just not gave up, but I think I was just, like, waiting to be saved or waiting to move on to the next school. I thankfully was, like, in the middle of a process of applying to private schools for high school. So, I think, once I just realized that people around me were just not really my support system, I decided to put my heads down, focus on academics and just, sort of, envisioned my future.

My future at the next school where I would be more committed to building a community of people that I liked and people that looked like me and understood where I was coming from. That point of alienation, at the time, definitely was, like, felt, kind of, harrowing, but I think it was something that was needed just as a reality check of, like, how important it is to navigate your life with people that really get you and get where you’re coming from. It also reminds you of the important, the importance of just having a Black girlfriend. I didn’t realize that was something that I needed until I got to undergrad. And I met my best friend now of, I don’t even know how many years that we met in, like, freshman year of undergrad.

And we’re both going to business school in the Bay area. and she was my first. Black girlfriend and it was honestly, it was, kind of, like, life changing for me in a sense, just because I, kind of, looked to her obviously as, like, my best friend, but also a bit of a mother figure in a way, just someone I could look up to that also was a Black woman.

And so, I really cherish that relationship. But. help me learn more about myself and how I navigate the world and also what it means to be part of the Black community.

[00:16:22] Brittany: yeah, that’s so special. And even thinking about, like, HBCUs and just how important they are to our communities. I chose to go to an HBCU, Howard University, for that reason. so, Princess, any thoughts around, like, acceptance and alienation?

[00:16:36] Princess: yeah, I can definitely relate to Beyoncé said and so I, we both went to the same school, Amherst College, and I think when I got there, I think I felt, like, really lucky to have So many amazing and powerful Black women around me and, I didn’t realize how lucky I was until I’ve now left that environment and it’s, like, oh wow, so I don’t have all my, like, Black women friends I can just walk, two minutes across the courtyard and go into the house and, like, you know, cry or laugh or, like, communicate and all those type of things.

And so, when I moved from that environment, which is more, connecting, we’re all on the same campus. We can reach each other easily to Boston, which is, you know, no Boston. And so, and as a consultant, I’ve been at company, I found it, like, to be, really a cultural shock in a lot of ways.

And I just know, that was definitely one of the most isolating periods of my life because, you know, no one I knew from there was, like, moving to Boston. It was, kind of, like, girl, why are you going to Boston?

Everyone was, like, you know, going to New York City, which makes sense. But being there and then being, like, the only, like, Black woman consultant there, definitely, when you go home, it’s like, who am I, talking to, or, you know, chatting to, who am I discussing the woes of my days to, of course you have your friends on the phone, but it’s different because I was so used to that in person connection that I was having on campus where, all my Black women friends were there, like, that was really my community.

And so, I definitely, felt that during those two years, definitely a bit more isolated and, kind of, like, it made me really think about, like, what I want in my next life. environment. And so, though I did end up staying in Boston, you know, I did move to all Black women, startup that was something I really prioritized and just, like, building that community for myself because I realized, you know, maybe this is something I actually did need because I just couldn’t see myself thriving in an environment where, you know, I also feel isolated.

I don’t really feel, like, I, you know, as we talk about, like, you know, that safety and feeling, like, The relationships you did have in those environments were really surface level.

[00:18:21] Brittany: thank you for sharing those experiences. And honestly, as you were talking, there was moments where I’m, like, Oh, Brittany, don’t fight back tears because we’ve all experienced those moments of isolation. Or alienation and probably not even intentional, people are probably not intending to isolate us, but they’re not being intentional about inclusion going to Haas, Haas is a pretty diverse place, but definitely there’s ample room to grow. And, can you speak to a specific experience where this was not the case? In other words, can you speak to an environment where you may have been the only Black woman and how that affected your experience, positive or negative?

[00:19:02] Princess: I feel, like, we run in packs, like, I feel, like, when I’m, like, going, I’m, like, Beyoncé, are you going? Or I’m, like, asking are you guys going? Are you guys going? And I’m, like, okay, beat me here. We’re going to go together, walk in, like, sometimes you have, like, Some people, like, host a barbecue or things, like, that. when their events are, like, not BBSA run, like, the Black business students are running or things, like, that. I’m, kind of, like, really intentional about, like, who’s going, who’s all going to be there.

And I, kind of, like, to, kind of, attach myself to those people. So, I feel, like, so far, I haven’t been the only, like, Black woman in the room as of yet, just because I’ve been intentionally Yeah, but then that’s also another thing, like, why have I been intentionally, doing that and not just, going there, showing up, you know, by myself

[00:19:39] Brittany: I agree with Princess for the most part, when attending events and, classes, unfortunately, like, there are ample Black women around me, so I, Don’t really feel that sense of isolation. The times that I have experienced that is, when it comes to the extracurriculars that I get involved with at Haas, one thing that I can call out is when we went to visit Yosemite for camping and for hiking, I would consider myself a more outdoorsy person, and I do think that there unfortunately isn’t enough diversity when it comes to the outdoors, I remember going on one hike at Yosemite called Clouds Rest, and I remember hiking, getting to the top, and I didn’t realize until I got to the top of a mountain when I looked around and I was.

[00:20:21] Beyoncé: That’s the only Black person on there that did the hike with me. And so, that was the first realization I was, like, oh, okay, it was just, something that I had to keep in mind as I, you know, explore these sides of myself, all these hobbies that I have been, like, waiting to get involved with that I may not have, I guess, a solidarity or someone else there.

So, that’s just something that I’ve, kept mind. That was one instance. And then another is I took an elective, called Intro to Coding here at Haas. Cause I’m interested in pivoting from consulting to more, product management, product design and that was where I also realized I was the only Black student in the room.

So, when you think about, diversifying STEM fields and as we get into pivoting to the tech industry, that is something where I’m realizing I may be the one of one. And so, I’m just constantly thinking about how can I pull people in or just. don’t know, engage interest, in other folks and hobbies that I enjoy that maybe people may not even realize they’d enjoy too.

So, yeah, that’s just something that I’m thinking about.

[00:21:22] Brittany: whether at Clouds Rest or in Intro to Coding, you know, being the only, did that affect your experience or maybe not so much?

[00:21:32] Beyoncé: I think because I’ve gotten so used to being the only one that, I don’t think it really retracted from my experience. It was less so, I think I had FOMO. I think I had a fear of missing out, like, where, if I’m here, where are the other Black people and what are they up to?

I think that’s where my maybe sadness came from of just, Recognizing the things that I may be interested in exploring is not something that other people that identify similarly may want to do. And so, that also just has me thinking about my own identity sometimes of I consider myself a Black woman, but I’m also interested in being in these spaces where, I am not seeing a lot of us, so, I don’t know, that’s just something that I, I have to reflect on at some point.

but I think it’s, yeah, mainly, I think I’ve built the confidence and the strength to put myself in these spaces

[00:22:22] Princess: I wanted to say one thing about that too, because I think I also did the hike on Hasemene. I remember, you know, I was looking at the people who were going on the hike and I realized it was going to be an older Black woman. I remember going to another Black woman, like, come with me on the hike.

Let’s go together. And it was so funny too, because I was, she was, like, Oh, thank you for pulling me. Cause I was also thinking about going on that hike, but I saw I was going to be the only Black woman. So, I was, like, I wasn’t going to go. I was just going to, like, frolic in the fields by myself.

And so, I think you mentioned the whole thing about pulling people in. And I think that’s also something that, I always, like, keeping in mind too, when I’m in different spaces.

So, I think I’m always pulling, like, people in and I feel, like, I need, like, a pair. Sometimes I think that hike was, like, really, fun. And, it definitely went, like, a, you know, a really great experience that I had, cause I’m definitely not an outdoorsy person.

I struggled with the hike, but it was nice, like, having, her there.

[00:23:05] Beyoncé: Before we bring in Merrick, I have this one last question just about the misconceptions people may have about Black girls Black students or other minority groups in just general and about why they stick together. Yeah, I think this is a really good question. I wish more people understood to not take it personally when we decide to stick with people that maybe look, like, us or people we feel more, comfortable with at the time. I think this can happen to anyone when you’re entering spaces where you’re the only one.

I think it’s a natural human inclination to now want to assimilate or try to do what the majority group is doing. And if you’re constantly in spaces where the majority doesn’t look, like, you and maybe have behaviors or interests that may not be your own, you tend to start living basically outside of your own body, like, outside of yourself you’re engaging in activities that, like, doesn’t really feel true to you if that makes sense and so I think after a while it just becomes a bit draining.

And so, The positives are what’s great about having this community of people that look, like, you is just, you know, as I mentioned before, just having time to rest, having time to not always consciously or subconsciously think about, okay, What do I need to do to perform or to be part of this in group or, how can I fit in?

Like, constantly asking yourself these questions and changing your behaviors to fit this majority group, like, it becomes so draining after a while. And so, I think that, yeah, again, the value of just being around people that look, like, you is you don’t have to ask yourself that question. Those questions, you can just exist, and recharge, in a sense.

[00:24:45] Beyoncé: to my earlier point, it’s a great place to recharge, then eventually get back out there because there’s, value and making connections and relationships with people that, don’t look, like, you. cause there’s value and diversity and building, those connections.

So, yeah, for me, it’s just,A place to recharge and rest and just exist, before going out in the real world.

[00:25:04] Brittany: Princess.

[00:25:05] Princess: I definitely agree with Beyoncé there in the, kind of, like, it doesn’t mean that I don’t want to have, like, non-Black women friends. I definitely, you know, love to have, like, friends from other races and all that type of stuff. So, I think what sometimes when people see you in those groups, they, kind of, might think we walk around them or things of that sort, like, they might feel, like, Oh, I don’t want to, like, go to that group and, like, say hi or maybe they’ll see that group and they might, like, isolate themselves in a group of just, like, Oh no, I’m not a part of it. I don’t look, like, them. So, I can’t, like, engage with them. And I think that’s definitely not the case. No, definitely no. When we’re in those groups, I think that’s just, like, our period of rest and, like, Just a, kind of, comfort thing for us.

But then, obviously, it doesn’t mean we’re not, like, friendly or or all that type of stuff. And so, I think that’s something I think about too. And I think also too, like, if you do come into those spaces, to be accepted in those spaces, you have to, like, act, like, Black or, you know, be, kind of, like, doing those things, like, African American vernacular, all those type of things, like, not necessary, not needed, like, you can all be yourself, I think those are, like, my two main points.

[00:26:03] Beyoncé: One quick thing I would just add is, I know people ask this question, right? It’s, like, why do Black people always, like, stick together? Why are they always hanging out with each other? We don’t ask enough, like, why are white people always hanging out with each other? I feel, like, the majority of the time see a white person in a friend group and it’s, like, everyone else looks, like, them. So, I would just place the question back onto them, like, what makes you want to be in a group that, looks, like, you or comes from a, common experience? I feel like the sentiment is pretty similar.

[00:26:32] Brittany: yeah. And just, again, creating those opportunities for support. Beyoncé Princess, Thank you so much for your thoughts, sharing your perspective.

And I know you guys are going to stick back because now Merrick is here as our expert to offer commentary on what we just heard and, kind of, unpacking what Beyoncé and Princess just said moments ago. But before we dive in, Merrick Osbourne, can you share a little bit more about your background, including the identities that you possess?

[00:27:04] Merrick: Absolutely. thank you all so much for having me on the podcast. I’m really excited to talk about the fascinating conversation that, We just, heard and also share a little bit about the work that I’m doing as well as what my colleagues are doing at Haas. but to, disclose my identities, I’m a cisgender, heterosexual, able bodied Black man.

I have a PhD in organizational behavior, which you can think of as, like, how, Business people interacts with each other. my expertise primarily is on effective ways to confirm prejudice. So, that’s really in line with what we’re talking about today. I did my PhD at the University of Southern California, the business school there, and I went to, UNC Chapel Hill in North Carolina for undergrad.

But, like, the other guests today, I actually grew up in a predominantly white, environment in Portland, Oregon, before my family moved to Charlotte. We can get into that, but I do want to say I am really excited to talk about this and offer my, perspective as a social psychologist, and I’ll try to be, clear on when I, move away from, scientists into just Merrick having similar experiences that have motivated my research and I know have motivated other researchers too.

[00:28:24] Brittany: Now, given your background and your research, what are your reactions to what Princess and Beyoncé shared, like, why do you think there is such a stigma held against people of color forming those close knit, social groups when white individuals do not face that same criticism?

[00:28:41] Merrick: I will respond from my background first before I talk about my research. I think that we are oftentimes focused on those who stand out the most. And as marginalized people and as, like, people with visible, physically marginalized identities, it’s easy for our attention to fall upon, those who don’t look, like, everybody else.

So, in one way, folks who look, like, each other congregating together stand out a lot when those folks just visually, optically, don’t map onto the prototype how everybody else identifies. Something that I’ve been thinking about a lot recently, too, is the implicit, historical, account of why, oftentimes, marginalized people weren’t permitted to gather in the first place.

There seems to be concerns about conspiracies or, planning or plotting or anything other than just people being people. those assumptions came from a place of fear. And it’s weird to say, but it’s a reasonable fear, particularly if you have concerns about, uprisings or things of that nature.

But I think that’s why it’s oftentimes such a salient experience for non-marginalized people to ask this question of why is everybody coming together? Because it’s so visually apparent

but I think as a person of color myself, I find it to be really helpful. I find it to be something that gives me a feeling of rest and relaxation too, some relief. And I think an opportunity for people who are marginalized to build those resources with each other.  Yeah, I know. It’s so interesting you say that.

[00:30:21] Brittany: you know, we’ve learned that self-segregation can serve as a form of protection. A response, to social pressures. and biases. On the other hand, some individuals might adopt a raceless persona to gain approval or to fit in more easily within diverse settings, considering these dynamics, do you believe that the tendency to self-segregate is a necessary protective strategy? Now, despite the extensive history of racism, what steps should be taken to encourage more genuine integration of different racial groups? And how can environments be shaped to foster this integration while respecting individual choices around identity and association?

[00:31:03] Merrick: So, a lot of really important questions that all of my peers, every social scientist will have a different answer to, particularly based on their own experiences. I want to get into the first part of that question, though, like, the extent to which self-segregation is necessary, my belief, and my also understanding is that it’s part of a suite of strategies that people have, from code switching to adopting a racist persona.

It is a very useful part of that suite of strategies. for a couple of reasons. Being able to, feel, like, you’re part of something bigger than yourself, like, a community that’s more than just you. Being able to confer with people who understand what you’re saying when you say, that sound weird?

You don’t have to be on the fence saying, this is why I thought that sounded weird, and now I know you don’t think it sounds weird, but you’re also invalidating that I thought it sounded weird off of some very, like, valid, objective facts. So, It’s necessary in that it gives the people who are distancing themselves from the stressor an opportunity to process that stressor.

And frankly, that can be More than just protective, it can be restorative. there’s some actually really interesting work in clinical psychology that talks about this process of free writing, where you have a stressful day, you come home, and it’s, like, journaling, but instead of having structure, you just Right.

And what this activity does is help release some of the, tension or some of the angst that is existing in your head. that’s been shown to help reduce anxiety and depression and whatnot. We don’t always have the opportunity to do this free writing exercise. Sometimes it’s enough to be able to just talk with somebody who you don’t have to explain yourself to a sense, it’s a necessary protective strategy. That doesn’t mean that it’s the only strategy that people need. And frankly, It’s worth being said, it’s not the strategy that every person of color has.

So, everybody has different, personality profiles that may be congregating with other people broadly, regardless of their identity, might be. give them the ick or make them feel uncomfortable, or they might isolate themselves even further.so it’s something that I think as we all process what our experiences, but also as listeners, as you process what, you’re hearing, everybody’s going to have different approaches to dealing with this stressor of being marginalized in a world that doesn’t necessarily give you the opportunity to, Not being marginalized. But then the second question about the steps that should be taken to encourage more genuine integration. Bear with me. I’m about to present an extended metaphor that I was thinking about as we were talking through this.

I am not ashamed to say I’m a nerd. and I spend all day studying humans. I try to figure out how they think and how they operate and, like, how they go about the world.

There’s a lot we can learn about animals and a lot that learning about animals can tell us about people. I, was grappling with this question of, do we know which animals have souls, which don’t?

And one of the things that comes up is that oftentimes when animals enter into defensive strategies, we think of it as instinctual. So, we don’t necessarily fault an anemone for curling up. when it’s prodded or provoked, we don’t get angry at bees for wanting to sting an aggressor or even sting if there’s a threat of violence.

And I think a lot of our conversation about people is oftentimes when we think about how marginalized people respond to stressors or threats of violence, however abstract you want to take that. We treat those responses as calculated and intentional and disruptive, particularly of the status quo, but oftentimes they’re responses.

And so, we shouldn’t be asking, how can we tell the bee to stop stinging? But rather we should be asking, well, what’s making it want to sting in the first place? What’s making the anemone want to curl up in the first place? And how can we remove that from the environment? Now, going back to what I said earlier, that’s going to be different for every single person of color.

There’s not going to be a blanket solution for everybody. There is going to be really useful strategies for everybody. every single person individually. So, Princess and Beyoncé are going to have different strategies, or would prefer different strategies that would, ease integration for them.

I think the question isn’t how do we make spaces more amenable for people to, come together? The question really should be, how do we make. a culture amenable for marginalized people to offer their insights on how to make more integrative community. So, rather than, approaching a Black person for the first time and saying, how do I make Haas better?

Just get to know that Black person for who they are, so that when you are faced with this opportunity to make Haas better, you’re not tokenizing them by calling them out because you’ve never met them.

And from there, you’ll have a much better informed idea of how to make Haas better for them, your workplace better for them, and even just your friendship, relationship, mentorship, acquaintanceship. Better.

[00:36:36] Brittany: Honestly, I love that so much. definitely increasing integration is part of the goal of this podcast. What advice would you give students who may not be a part of that minority group, but they’re hoping to bridge the gap with minorities. Simply put, how do you recommend allies try to get to know their peers better without taking away from their safe spaces, with their affinity groups?

[00:37:02] Merrick: what I’d said about getting to know your peers, just as human beings stands in terms of how to, you know, One of the best answers to this question. You’re going to walk into a room, a classroom full of people.

All of these people are your classmates. All of these people are treasure troves of not just information, but, like, personal accounts of the ways that they’ve walked through the world or have experienced, the workplace. better to see them as people rather than as, resources.

There’s also many opportunities in the community, like, especially in the Bay Area, and in plenty of other communities too, to be able to engage in culturally relevant events without being weird. for instance,

If there’s a festival or a parade, let’s say there’s a Juneteenth parade, or a Diwali parade, or a Dia de los Muertos parade, just because another group celebrates that doesn’t mean that you’re not invited. If it’s a moment of celebration, it’s, like,ly a moment for community. And just by virtue of you being a Haas MBA, being a Bay Area resident, presumably you’re paying taxes here, you can go.

And who knows what you’re going to learn. You might not learn anything. You might learn a whole bunch. You might meet people who aren’t students. You’re connecting with a community that gives you the opportunity to open your mind to what else could be going on. And I’m not saying that you go so that you can then tell Princess and Beyoncé and say, I went to a Juneteenth parade, aren’t we cool?

Maybe they’ll give you an opportunity to empathize with them naturally, when there’s an opportunity to empathize with them naturally. I would recommend for allies, or for folks who are just curious, It’s to take a moment to actually look at something, like, a meetup or an event, right?

Where they’re all just, like, lists of events and opportunities at Haas, beyond to see what’s something you wouldn’t go to normally.

I think that part of being a good ally is realizing that it actually doesn’t take that much work. It just takes a little bit of self reflection and self exploration.

Absolutely. This has been so great. clearly one of the recommendations that you gave is really just to go beyond yourself. It’s one of the, again, defining leadership principles at Haas. And so, Let’s live up to, some of our own, defining leadership principles.

[00:39:25] Brittany: We’re closing out. First and foremost, we definitely just want to thank Merrick, Beyoncé, Princess for your time. We appreciate your vulnerability today. this has been such a meaningful conversation and I believe it would truly help our listeners better understand the importance of community for minority groups in predominantly white environments.

And that concludes our episode for today. Thanks for being a part of our pod. Be sure to join us next time at Belonging@Haas as we continue to explore the diverse perspectives within the Haas community.