In celebration of Earth Day, we invited Martin Szczepanik, NYC alumni chapter president, to talk about renewable energy and sustainability, topics that he is extremely passionate about. Martin currently works at PA Consulting as a Principal Consultant, where he supports their Clean & Smart Mobility offering, helping companies and cities transition to de-carbonized transportation. He also supports utilities and other entities with their purchase and acquisition of renewable energy.
Martin is a first-generation American. His parents escaped communism in Poland in the 80s. He and his family faced adversity as they were assimilating in the United States. Martin faced some challenges that shaped where he is today. However, underneath all of it is his passion for clean energy.
In this episode, Martin shares his early beginnings as a first-generation American, his career pivot and how his experience at Haas helped him with the transition, and what he does at PA Consulting as a Principal Consultant.
Martin also talks about the future of clean and renewable energy and the new technologies people should be excited about.
Episode Quotes:
On choosing accounting and finance as his college degree
At the time, it was essentially a safety decision because I knew no matter what was going on with the economy, no matter what happens, you’re going get paid in a career in accounting. Accountants are always needed, whether the economy’s doing well or not. And I also thought about it as understanding the language of business, and it opens potential new opportunities for me in the future.
His passion for clean energy
I don’t really have one of those interesting origin stories, necessarily. I didn’t see my house get swept away by a rainstorm. I didn’t see, you know, anything crazy happen with being in a drought. But I do remember my junior year of high school, I was in an AP environmental science class, and at this point in time, it was pretty much peak emissions for the entire globe. And I think at the time, the United States was getting 70 to 80% of their power from coal, and the big Hummer came out. Everything was bragging about that, and I just had this feeling of desperation. What are we doing to our planet? Things are getting worse, and we were still burning so much coal and driving Hummers. There’s not really a clear, viable path for us to get off of fossil fuels as a society.
Show Links:
- Martin Szczepanik on LinkedIn
- BHAN-NYC LinkedIn Group
- Berkeley Haas Alumni Network NYC
Transcript:
(Transcripts may contain a few typographical errors due to audio quality during the podcast recording.)
[00:00] Sean: Welcome to the OneHaas Alumni Podcast. I’m your host, Sean Li. And today, we’re excited to welcome Martin Szczepanik. Martin is a principal consultant at PA Consulting. He’s also an EWMBA 2018 alum. And he’s currently the president of the Berkeley Haas Alumni Network, New York Chapter.
Welcome to the podcast, Martin.
[00:26] Martin: Thank you. Thanks, Sean, for having me.
[00:28] Sean: Martin, we like to start off these conversations hearing about your background.
[00:32] Martin: I’m a first-generation American, so I was the first of my family to be born here in the U.S. My parents escaped communism from Poland in 1985, temporarily moved to East Germany, where my sister was born, and then came to the U.S. about 1986. Pretty much came to the U.S. not knowing any English. They got set up with the Polish Catholic Church and stayed in an attic for a little bit in Rockville, Maryland, which, during the summer, gets super-hot without air-conditioning. So, they definitely struggled a little bit, coming here for the first time.
And I was born a couple years later in 1988, grew up in the Maryland area. My sister’s three years older than me. And a couple funny memories that I have from growing up. So, I don’t actually remember this, but my parents constantly remind me of this. But, basically, my first day of preschool, because we spoke Polish at home, I didn’t speak any English at all. So, when I went to preschool and started jibber-jabbering with the kids, I actually thought that they were just talking funny Polish, instead of actually speaking English with each other. So, I’m actually really happy that my parents instilled the Polish language in me, and I still continue it to this day.
But I would say my experience as a kid was definitely a bit in between two cultures, living in this American world, having Polish parents at home, mostly speaking that Polish language at home, but still trying to learn how to balance both sides. And it’s something that, even if it’s not Polish people, even if it’s a lot of my other friends who are coming from immigrant families, they have a similar experience being in this third culture, where they have to balance and create their own identity that’s a unique blend between their parents and where their ancestry comes from and the fact that they’re in this country that’s just such a big melting pot.
[02:24] Sean: I have to ask, do your parents have any harrowing stories of escaping East Germany?
[02:28] Martin: So, their actual escape story is a little bit boring. Basically, I believe they went to East Germany on a visa. And like so many immigrants, they essentially just intentionally overstayed their visa. And at the time, the U.S. is pretty sympathetic to people coming to the United States from communist countries. So, they didn’t really have a difficult time getting out of the country. I believe, at the time, they weren’t given amnesty, but once communism fell, pretty much everyone that left because of communism was awarded amnesty and was reinstated as citizens. So, both of my parents have dual citizenship with Poland and the U.S.
They do have a couple of interesting stories. So, my mom… well, both of my parents were involved in the Solidarity Movement, which was basically the Polish uprising against communism, led by this leader called Lech Wałęsa. And they told me about stories where they’d go to protest, they’d be throwing bottles, throwing rocks. They’d be yelling at the police and everything. And pretty brutal stories of people getting beaten and sent to prison and everything and getting questioned.
So, interestingly enough, my mom was actually involved in a pretty big story that blew up in Poland last year. So, my mom and my dad, they’re divorced now, but I want to say this is in the late ’70s. They took a trip to Prague in the Czech Republic, and they sent a postcard back to my mom’s parents — so, the grandma and the grandpa from my mom’s side. At the time, my grandma was really sick. She was actually suffering from leukemia. And the postcard never came. So, 50 years later — 40 or 50 years later — I can’t do the math in my head right now, but last summer the postcard finally got delivered to that specific address. And the person who lives there now… so, both my grandma and my grandpa on my mom’s side passed away. Long ago they left that apartment. But somebody on Facebook who currently lives there figured out my mom’s name and reached out to my mom and said, “Hey, this postcard from 1979 was finally delivered to the house with your parents’ name on it from you.”
And basically, what happened is my mom was on a list, essentially, a list of people who were potentially enemies of the state. And her mail got blocked. And when communism fell in 1990, around the late ’80s, early ’90s, all that mail was supposed to get released and everything was supposed to be sent back to the individuals, but something got mixed up and, somehow, she didn’t get that piece of mail until 2022. So, it actually blew up as this feel-good story, because it was this postcard that was just written about my parents’ trip to Prague, how much fun they were having. And my mom completely forgot about that postcard until someone serendipitously reached out to her on Facebook. And she got interviewed with a couple of Polish magazines, so that was pretty cool.
[05:25] Sean: That’s very neat. You grew up in Maryland. Tell us, what did you study? What would you go to school for?
[05:31] Martin: My parents were pretty good about putting me in a lot of extracurricular activities. So, I went to Polish school, which was a Saturday school, until I was 13, 14. I was enrolled in an extra math class early on and did chess club, did a couple of other things as well.
So, definitely went through some hardships early on with my family. So, my parents got divorced, and we had some financial difficulties. There were some challenges there with housing and everything that shaped where I am today. And those challenges basically made me think about my career and what can I do to not have those challenges for myself in the future. But underlying all that, I had this passion for clean energy. And I don’t really have one of those interesting origin stories, necessarily, with that. I didn’t see my house get swept away by a rainstorm. I didn’t see anything crazy happen with being in a drought. But I do remember my junior year of high school, I was in an AP environmental science class. And at this point in time, it was pretty much peak emissions for the entire globe around 2004, 2005. And I think, at the time, the United States was getting 70 to 80% of their power from coal. The big Hummer came out, if you remember the H1 Hummer that all the cool people had, that got three miles per gallon.
[06:54] Sean: Yeah, everything was getting bigger and bigger — Suburbans, Cadillacs, Hummers.
[06:58] Martin: Yeah, exactly. Everyone was bragging about that. And I just had this feeling of desperation, of what are we doing to our planet? And the fact that things are getting worse, we’re emitting more. Hurricane Katrina happened around then. And it’s difficult to pinpoint a specific weather event to climate change, specifically, but still, just the fact that all this was happening and we were still burning so much coal and driving Hummers, and there’s not really a clear, viable path for us to get off of fossil fuels as a society.
So, a lot of that was just sitting in the back of my head, but I did have this conflicting thought of, that’s an area that I want to work in at some point, but I do really worry about financial security, especially because I had some challenges of financial security, growing up. So, when I got to my senior year of high school, started applying to colleges, I originally was going to go for an econ degree, but last minute I changed to accounting and finance. And at the time, it was essentially a safety decision because I knew, no matter what’s going on with the economy, no matter what happens, a career in accounting is, you’re going to get paid in a career of accounting. Accountants are always going to be needed, whether the economy’s doing well or not. And I also thought about it as understanding the language of business, and it opens up potential new opportunities for me in the future.
So, I got accepted into the University of Maryland, did my accounting and finance degree there. For the most part, I’d say I was a good student. I had a couple of semesters that I didn’t do as well, but really kicked it into high gear in junior and senior year when I was looking for longer-term career options. I graduated in 2010, immediately started a job with PwC (PricewaterhouseCoopers) in their audit group in Baltimore. And I would say I generally enjoyed the work, but a lot of the work that I was doing was industry-agnostic. So, I was doing work for a telecommunications company. I was doing work for financial services companies. I was basically doing work in areas that I didn’t feel too strongly or too passionately about.
And I was looking for something different. I wanted to move out of Baltimore. I wanted to move to a bigger city, either San Francisco or New York. So, in 2014, I had a really good opportunity. I had a couple of colleagues at the PwC San Francisco office who said, “We’ve got this account that needs someone to help with their audit.” And it happened to be SolarCity, if you remember that name. It was a big residential commercial solar developer that eventually got acquired by Tesla. But they were willing to transfer me over to the San Francisco office.
And at this point, I just finished up my GMAT. So, I was sitting on my GMAT score, and I was really looking at Haas and, I believe, NYU’s or Columbia’s part-time program. I can’t remember which one, but Haas was really my number-one choice. And I wanted to go into the part-time program. So, like I said before with my concerns around financial security, I thought it was really important for me to work while doing my MBA, even though, obviously, that brings in a host of different challenges.
So, in 2014, I applied to Haas. I got accepted in 2015 and started in fall of 2015, and today one of the best decisions of my life.
[10:29] Sean: Why would you say that is?
[10:30] Martin: I would say that Haas really helped me with my career transition. And even though I started working in the clean energy world just a couple of months before I started, I really was working there from an audit and accounting perspective, but wanted to pivot over more into the strategy and customer-facing side. And what it felt like I learned in Haas, there were a couple of things. So, one is there is a big commitment there to sustainability and clean energy. So, there were some courses, specifically, that were really impactful. So, Severin Borenstein’s class on energy and environmental markets, I still use the foundation of that five years later today. There’s classes on sustainability that I took. Just the fact that there’s so much emphasis and focus on sustainability and how important that is to the world and how you can create viable businesses out of that, I felt like that environment made it really helpful for me to begin transitioning my career. So, I would say that, from a technical perspective, that was really critical.
I would say, just from a little bit more of the soft-skill side, I think the classes and just being able to do presentations and meet just a variety of different people, I think I got a lot better at telling my story. And for a long time, before my MBA, I felt like it was very difficult for me to articulate, why do I want to get into clean energy? Why should someone like me with an accounting background be considered for a strategy role, for example? And just the fact that it was so much about communication and so much about presenting new ideas and presenting projects and presenting yourself, I felt that it really let me solidify my story.
And the last thing that I would say is, as part of this career pivot, so when I graduated in 2018, I was still working for PwC in a slightly different role. But I was looking for, like I mentioned before, more of an outward strategy-facing role. And through an alumni of mine, I saw a job being posted online. And I asked him, because he actually worked for this company. And this is when I worked at a company called Navigent, which changed their name to Guidehouse a couple of years ago. So, I worked with them for a couple of years. And the job posting, it was written by a partner sponsor. And I texted my friend. So, his name was Tim Hummel. He’s also an EWMBA 2018. I texted him and said, “Hey, I see this job posting. Is there anything that you can tell me about it?” And he walked over to the partner that wrote it, because he was actually in the office the same day as her. And he brought my resume directly to her that day.
[13:16] Sean: I think that’s a great segue to, share a little bit with us, what exactly does a principal consultant do at PA Consulting?
[13:24] Martin: So, every day is a little bit different, I can tell a bit about my personal experience and the work that I do. So, I do a lot of work with helping utility companies procure renewable energy. So, basically, what that means is a utility company will forecast how much demand there’s going to be on their system. And with the advent of electric vehicles, electric heat pumps, other electrification technology, that demand is just steadily increasing, increasing, increasing every single year.
And what are utilities responsible for? And you’re probably familiar with utilities like PG&E, Southern California Edison, San Diego Gas & Electric. They’re responsible for making sure that they can deliver that power to individual customers. So, they have to procure enough power in the future to be able to do that.
So, a lot of the work that I do is working with these utility companies to set up these procurements, identify what their need is, how much power do they need in years 2026, ’27, ’28, ’29, ’30. And then, how do they go about the best process of actually getting that power online?
So, for example, right now I’m working with a utility on the West Coast. And they’re doing a procurement process for new energy resources. And essentially, there’s over 100 projects that have been bid into this procurement process. And they’re all of different types. So, there’s wind projects, solar power plant projects, battery storage projects. And we have to do an analysis on each of those to determine, do we think that they’re going to be online at the correct date when they need it by to meet that demand? Are there going to be any issues with permitting or getting them online? Are they in the appropriate place on the grid? And also, doing financial modeling to see if it’s the most cost-effective.
And these utilities are highly regulated. There’s a lot of importance behind making sure that, because they’re monopoly, that customers are getting the fairest price possible and that these processes to actually get new power online are done so in a competitive fashion to limit the cost impact to customers.
So, a lot of my work is around that. I’m also working on the electric vehicle side and building out some products and services there. So, one of the markets that we’re pursuing now is working with city states and municipalities on building out their electric vehicle charging networks. And this is for both the general public and then for particular fleet business cases. So, fleet can be, for example, municipal garbage trucks. It can be a fleet of taxis, any sort of thing. And how many chargers do you need? Where do you place those chargers? What’s the best way to build out this infrastructure to encourage as much electric vehicle adoption as possible? And also, do it in a way that recognizes the disparities in different communities and bring some of those technologies and those opportunities associated with it to communities that otherwise wouldn’t have those opportunities to do so.
[16:29] Sean: How do you predict, or how do you count for future tech or developments of technology and the energy calculations?
[16:38] Martin: That’s a great question. So, I consider new technological innovation, things like electric vehicles and electric heat pumps, and just for the audience probably familiar with electric vehicles, maybe not so much with electric heat pumps, but the gist of it is that you can convert heating and cooling of a space from natural gas or oil to using electricity in a highly efficient manner. So, when we’re looking at demand, we consider those to be the two biggest components of what’s going to drive demand in the future with the change.
[17:11] Sean: I see.
[17:12] Martin: Because when you think about it, what you’re doing with electric vehicles is you’re shifting the fuel demand from a traditional fuel, like gasoline or diesel. You’re shifting that onto the electric grid. And similarly with electric heat pumps, you’re shifting natural gas demand and oil demand to the electric grid as well. So, we see those as the two biggest primary drivers. There’s been a lot of conversation about data centers and how much power they consume, but from all of the studies and analysis that I found, they really consume less than 1% of the world’s electricity. And the biggest things are still going to continue to be moving things and heating things, just because the physics of those two actions requires tremendous amounts of energy. But that’s not to say that we don’t think that there’s going to be incremental demand from, potentially, new cryptocurrencies or other technological innovations that require additional computing power. It’s just that the scale of that computing power, still in terms of what we’re seeing, is not nearly at the same scale of transitioning transportation or transitioning heating or industrial processes from traditional fossil fuel-based to electric-based.
And the one last point I was going to make is, about five or six years ago, there was a lot of talk in the industry that, with the advent of data centers and the fact that we’re moving to cloud computing and the fact that the amount of data that’s getting stored in process is exponentially growing, that’s going to cause emissions to skyrocket. But what we’ve seen happening is, especially with companies like Microsoft or Amazon that have net zero commitments, all the incremental data centers that they’re building and all that incremental energy that they’re using to power those data centers, they’re procuring renewable energy to do that. So, even though it’s increasing the collective computing power and increasing how much electricity is being used in total, it’s not necessarily increasing carbon emissions.
So, that hasn’t been the biggest issue. The biggest issue has still been — I would call it the big three — power generation, transportation, and then home heating and business heating, as the three big things.
[19:27] Sean: So, as a lay person, I’m extremely curious, in terms of efficiency, I know this is something that we work towards, but is it efficient to, let’s say for regions that are not yet fully running on sustainable energy, renewable energy sources, I imagine it can’t be more efficient to burn coal, convert that to power, and then transfer that to cars, right? It’s probably still more efficient to just burn the gasoline, I imagine.
[19:59] Martin: Yeah. So, that’s a really big point of debate. And basically, what you’re referring to is a concept called life-cycle emissions. Essentially, how much is something going to admit over the course of its life, including the fuel that it’s consuming. I don’t know the answer about coal, but I did see an analysis done on a 100% natural gas grid that, even if you power an electric vehicle on a grid that’s 100% based off of natural gas, it still is better for the environment over the course of a couple of years than an internal combustion engine vehicle is. And the biggest reason for that is that internal combustion engines are incredibly inefficient. They only convert about 20 to 30% of the power and a gallon of gasoline into motion, and the rest gets emitted as heat, right?
[20:51] Sean: Right.
[20:51] Martin: So, laws of thermodynamics say that energy cannot be created or destroyed. You’re taking the potential energy of gasoline. You’re only getting about 30% of it to move the car. The 70% gets wasted as heat, which is why engines are so hot, which is why the exhaust is so hot. And with an electric vehicle, you’re getting closer to 90, 95% efficiency. So, the power that goes into the car and then goes from the battery to the wheels, about 85 to 90% of that is, actually, making the car move. Very little of it is lost to heat.
[21:23] Sean: Wow.
[21:24] Martin: And if you think about it, a natural gas power plant, the most efficient ones, they run at about 55, 60% efficiency. So, you take that into account, you take into account the transmission and distribution losses, you’re still getting about 45% efficiency into the car from the electricity from natural gas versus the 20 to 30 from directly burning gasoline. So, it’s pretty much a slam dunk. I would say the only additional consideration, and this is something that’s being worked on, is there’s more emissions currently to build an electric vehicle. So, the upfront emissions in terms of building that electric vehicle versus a traditional combustion engine vehicle, there’s a bit more in that. But then, that quickly catches up when you’re fueling the vehicle with electricity instead of with gasoline. So, I think the breakeven for most use cases is about three to four years. If you think about something like a taxi or Lyft or Uber that gets really high utilization, the breakeven is less than one year. And you expect vehicles to be on the road for 7, 10, 15 years.
[22:23] Sean: I love that. Martin, since you’re in the industry, what are some exciting technologies that are exciting to you, that you think will be coming online soon?
[22:31] Martin: The boring answer is, there’s a lot of incremental progress constantly being made on the technologies that we already know. So, solar is getting cheaper, getting more efficient every year. Wind is getting cheaper, getting more efficient every year. Batteries are getting cheaper, more efficient every year. I would say, now, most of the batteries that are implemented on the grid system are lithium ion, but there are various battery technologies that are longer-duration. So, basically, what that means is lithium-ion batteries are usually just used for four to eight hours. So, in California, for example, where you live, there’s a lot of solar penetration during the day. A lot of times, there’s so much solar power that we just don’t know what to do with it. So, that gets loaded up into a battery, and then the battery will discharge early in the evening when people come home, turn on their air-conditioners, turn on their stoves, turn on their TVs. But it’s really only good for that 24-hour cycle because of the battery chemistry. But there are other technologies, where the energy can be stored for hundreds of hours, if not over weeks of time.
[23:44] Sean: Wow.
[23:44] Martin: And what that means is, let’s just say that you have a period of time where it’s not particularly windy and not particularly sunny. You can charge the battery when it is. And then during those times where it’s both a situation where it’s not windy or sunny, you can discharge these long-duration batteries and keep them for when they’re most useful. I’m really looking forward to seeing how those are going to be put onto the grid.
And the other thing is the recyclability of batteries. They theoretically should be, basically, infinitely recyclable at the same quality without quality deterioration. And what we’re seeing is, some companies that are coming up with battery recycling methodologies, like Redwood Materials, but even just taking the same battery out of an electric vehicle, so let’s just say that you have an electric vehicle that’s been on the road for about 10 years, the battery used to charge to 100%, now it only charges up to 80, 85% of its existing capacity, you can take that battery out and then put it into a different use case like grid storage, for example. I think that industry’s still evolving, but if you think about, now… and I want to say California now has about a 20% penetration of electric vehicles, a 20% of the sales every year. And that’s growing every single year, are electric vehicles. We’re going to have so many batteries at the end of their life in eight, 10 years. But those can be repurposed, either, directly taken out of the vehicle and put onto the grid, or you take the materials out and recycle them into, basically, virgin materials that you put back into the supply chain of building new batteries. So, I’m really excited about that technology.
And lastly, this is one of those technologies that’s been around the corner for the last five to 10 years, but vehicle-to-grid. And you’re seeing a little bit of that. And that’s basically vehicle-to-grid or vehicle-to-building. And that’s basically when you can take the battery power from a vehicle. And you might have seen the advertisements for the Ford Lightning.
[25:46] Sean: Yeah.
[25:47] Martin: Where the lights go out, and then you plug the Ford Lightning into your house, and you’re able to power your house from that. I actually see that being potentially huge and a potentially a huge selling point for a lot of people, because in those cases you can use that car both as a vehicle, as your primary vehicle. You can use it as emergency backup for your house. You could also potentially use it if the constructs come into play as a new revenue source to sell power back to the grid when it’s most expensive, like during those times where, in California, where you have the public safety power shutoffs. In PG&E service territory, you’d be able to send back power to the grid. Or if you have a situation where, in Texas, for example, like a couple of years ago, when the grid was so strained, you’d be able to sell power back to the grid.
So, I wouldn’t say I’m bullish or bearish on that technology. I think it’s an interesting use case. And I definitely want to see where it goes, because I think it’s a fantastic use of an asset that cars hit idle 95% of the time. You can use that battery for other means, potentially as a revenue-generation sources when you’re not using the vehicle to transport yourself.
[26:54] Sean: Martin, are there any projects that you’re working on that you’d like to share with our listeners or where our listeners can support?
[27:00] Martin: This is a bit of a personal project that I’m doing on the side, not associated with my employer. But here in New York City, there’s a decarbonization law on the books. And it basically requires buildings of a certain size to reduce their carbon emissions by 2024, and then a steeper decline by 2030, or else they’ll face penalties and fines. And I recently purchased my apartment here in New York City, so there’s a model here called a cooperative model. So, I’m part of this co-op, basically. And our building is one of complex of 14. And I raised my hand to volunteer with helping with our effort to how to decarbonize our building. And it’s all the things that we were talking about, Sean, earlier, about heat pumps, about solar, about how to actually do it, and all the complications associated with that.
So, I’m working with my building on figuring out ways to do that most cost effectively, and what are the ways do we approach it, what projects do we do first versus last. And it’s really interesting, just because it’s, a lot of the things that I talk about in my work are a bit more high-level. It’s a bit more about the macro policy, regulatory environment of how that’s going to improve heat pumps and electric vehicles and all that and solar adoption. And then, this is really just on the ground, actually looking at the engineering, looking at the specific building design. And how can we actually make this building more efficient?
That’s really my main project, from a personal standpoint. Like I mentioned with work, I am working a lot in the electric vehicle charging space, as well as the large-scale renewable space. So, if anybody works in that area and needs some support there, or if anybody’s looking to pivot their career there, they can find me on LinkedIn at Martin Szczepanik. More than happy to answer your questions. I’m more than happy to set up a chat with you. And if you’re in New York City, we can go grab a coffee or lunch.
[28:56] Sean: I love that. Is there anything else we haven’t covered that you want to share before we close out?
[29:01] Martin: I think the last thing is, also, just please, if you are in the New York City area, please follow our chapter, Berkeley Haas Alumni Network, New York City Chapter. We do have a couple of events coming up. And we do events pretty much every single month. And we’re actually going through our open nomination processes soon. We always love having new people join our board. So, we’ll have that launch, probably, by May 1st. And we’d love to get people who are interested in signing up for the board to help volunteer. We’re always looking for volunteers. And it’s a great opportunity to meet other alumni and to make your name in the community. So highly, highly encouraged. And it’s been really important for me, as I moved from San Francisco to New York City to build my community here.
[29:45] Sean: I second that. Definitely encourage everyone listening to join their local alumni chapters, if there is one. If not, maybe think about starting one. Find some Haasies. There’s Haasies all over the world. So, that’s really important for us to stay connected. We’re just really honored to have you on the podcast, Martin. And thank you so much for taking the time to speak to us about all these things in sustainability and what you do. I personally learn a lot today, which is why I love doing these podcasts. Aside from just sharing what you know, I feel like I get to learn so much as well. So, really appreciate having you on.
[30:21] Martin: Thank you, Sean. Had a great time. Appreciate it.
[30:26] Sean: Thanks again for tuning in to this episode of the OneHaas Podcast. If you enjoyed our show today, please hit that Subscribe or Follow button on your favorite podcast player. We’d also really appreciate you giving us a five-star rating and review.
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