Opening Doors, Not Checking Boxes: Rethinking DEI Hiring Practices

(Transcripts may contain a few typographical errors due to audio quality during the podcast recording.)

[00:00:00] Brittany: All right. Hey, everyone. I’m your host, Brittany Jacob. And you’re listening to Belonging@Haas, the B-School MBA podcast. This is a Berkeley MBA student-led podcast, focused on diversity, equity, inclusion, justice, and belonging. That’s DEIJB for short. We’re here to share student perspectives and expert advice, tapping into new viewpoints and engaging in open, honest conversations that foster a welcoming and inclusive environment.

Our goal is for everyone to feel valued and empowered to succeed. Now, in this podcast, diverse perspectives are celebrated and differences are embraced. Belonging@Haas is part of a race inclusion initiative course project at Haas Business School, developed in partnership with the Haas MBA Student Government Association. And together, we’re committed to creating a more inclusive and equitable community at Haas and beyond. So, let’s get into it.

In this episode, we’re taking a close look at diversity hiring pipelines in MBA programs and universities. It’s a powerful, but sometimes, controversial tool aimed at leveling the playing field for historically underrepresented groups. With terms like DEI hire becoming more common, we hear it in the news and even heard it through this election cycle. There’s a lot to unpack about what diversity recruiting programs actually aim to accomplish, how they work to build a more inclusive workforce and how participants in these programs feel when accused of accepting shortcuts or gaining unfair access.

So, in the U.S., if you didn’t know, people have conflicting views on whether race ethnicity should be a part of hiring processes and the importance of diversity in the workplace. A Pew Research Center study suggests that 74% of U.S. adults said that race should not be considered in hiring or promotions. However, 75% also said that it’s very important or somewhat important for companies and organizations to promote racial and ethnic diversity in the workplace.

We’ll break all of that down, all of the misconceptions, like, the idea that these programs lower the bar or they create some sort of shortcut while hearing first hand Camila Duque, a student who landed her internship and a full-time position, I might add, through one of these initiatives.

Now, join us as we explore the real impact of these pipelines on student careers, their personal experiences, navigating the backlash at Haas, even just outside of Haas, and how these programs are working to shift hiring norms one opportunity at a time.

All right. Welcome to our pod, Camila Duque. Camila, “Cami,” which… how do you want me to call you today?

[00:03:00] Camila: You can call me Cami. Let’s get comfortable here. Thank you so much for having me.

[00:03:04] Brittany: To start off our conversation, tell me about how you identify culturally and personally. What are some of those, like, key aspects of your background that have shaped who you are today?

[00:03:17] Camila: So, I identify as female — she, her, hers. I am Colombian. And more recently, I’ve started to embrace the term, “Colombian American.” I am an immigrant and I am also an older sister.

[00:03:31] Brittany: Very nice. And can you give me a little bit about your job and how you got to where you are, why the MBA, and, kind of, what you’re going to be doing post MBA?

[00:03:41] Camila: Yeah. So, I think, like, I’ve had a very weird path towards the MBA. I started off wanting to become a diplomat. I grew up traveling and moving around a ton when I was a kid, and that was my experience. And so, I went to college at the University of Florida — go Gators — where I studied political science, hoping to focus on international relations.

And then halfway through, I realized that that was not really what I wanted to do and I didn’t want to do research, so I added finance as a mode for me to really tackle, like, the government and the international side, but from, like, a business perspective. And that’s where I ended up landing a job with Deloitte in its government and public sector practice. So, I lived four years in D.C., did a whole bunch of things, but what really stuck out to me is that I did a lot of pro bono work working for Latin American nonprofit organizations in the social impact space. And that really ignited the fuel for me to try to pursue that as a career.

And so, that’s how I ended up applying to business school. I’m like, “Let’s try to fit in DEI social impact and business in a way that actually motivates me and gets me up in the mornings.” And, from there, I knew I wanted to continue in consulting and I just wanted to be in a place where I could continue to explore both the social impact side, but also continue to grow my skills in a lot of different sectors within business. And McKinsey had a really good practice. It’s called SHaPE, where it’s dedicated to social impact, health, government. And that’s where I wanted to focus my attention. And that’s where I ended up. So, I feel very lucky of that journey to get there.

[00:05:29] Brittany: Yeah, first off, congratulations. That is so awesome. So, you got that internship and then the offer and now secure the job, secure the bag.

[00:05:39] Camila: Yes.

[00:05:41] Brittany: So, now, talk to me about the process getting that job. What program initiative did you go through to get to that point?

[00:05:49] Camila: Yeah. So, as soon as I got accepted into Haas, I became aware that there were a lot of different pre-MBA programs that were available for students that, kind of, had an idea of what they wanted to do during their MBA and, like, what they wanted to recruit for. And I applied to McKinsey’s pre-MBA program, among many others. Also, just to give you context, they have two different types of pre-MBA programs. They have one that’s just, like, exploratory and it’s open to everyone. And then there’s one that’s specifically dedicated to U.S. minorities. And I applied to both, I got into both. And for the one that is called McKinsey Inspire, which is the one for underrepresented minorities, I got a screening from the Haas recruiter. And from there, they offered me the opportunity to go to the McKinsey office in Chicago for two days and explore, get to know the company a little bit better.

And the purpose of this was to really, the way that they framed it was, let’s identify talent early and let’s make sure that they have the resources that they need to be successful in the interviews. So, based out of that program, they offer you an interview, or you can recruit early and interview in the August cycle before school starts. Or you have the opportunity to interview in the normal cycle in January. And I tried to hedge my bets, and I was like, “Okay, let’s interview in August, see how it goes. If I don’t get in in August, I’ll try again in the normal January cycle.” And I was lucky enough, and I did study a lot during that time to be able to, kind of, land that job.

[00:07:30] Brittany: Yeah. And most people know that recruiting for consulting can be really tough. Can we dive into, like, all that it took to even get to that point, to receive the offer for the internship?

[00:07:43] Camila: As soon as I found out that I was going to Haas, I started casing. And lucky, for me, because I’d done consulting already, I had a ton of resources that I used in my undergrad to be able to support myself and practice through a lot of that. I also got support from other Haasies that were first-years and second-years already in the program that had gone through the recruiting cycle, as well as other peers. Shout-out to Brooke Tannahill. She was amazing at helping me through that process as well.

And then, as soon as I heard that I got the interview, I studied my butt off 8:00 AM to 5:00 PM for two weeks straight before the interview. And then I went on vacation for a week, and I was like, “Okay, we’re going to just not think about this.” And then I took my interview while I was in Mexico City. But all of that process, I think, like, was the years in the making. It was not something that, like, I’d taken up lightly. I had a lot of experience doing that before.

[00:08:47] Brittany: I love how you said that years in the making, this is not something that happens overnight. And I think we all know that, like, that consulting, recruiting process, it’s really tough. And a few of us have gone through it, and it’s definitely not for the weak, for sure. And so, you know, as far as the difference in the traditional recruiting process, did you feel like doing that process gave you, maybe, an advantage or a leg up instead of doing it during the normal recruiting process?

[00:09:18] Camila: Yeah, I think it would be the same process. And I think the main thing was I was really able to tune out a lot of the noise from other students and the stress that I was hearing from everyone else during the first year recruiting cycle. I think stress is a really big part of it. And just listening to other people and, like, hearing one bird say something and then another bird say something else and then just being confused, for me, it was like a just really straightforward process. I was like, “We’re going to do this and we’re going to do it in two weeks. And that’s just it.”

And so, I was able to, like, really concentrate. And I didn’t have any classes or anything getting in the middle of my practicing or my studying or whatnot. So, I was able to, kind of, do it my way, which I appreciated because it worked the first time around when I recruited for consulting at Deloitte. And so, I repeated that same process, just with a few more resources that other students had given me.

[00:10:13] Brittany: Yeah. And you seemed, also, to help a lot of people during the recruiting process since you had already gone through it. You’d helped so many people during the August to December time period when they started casing in preparation for their own internship.

[00:10:28] Camila: Yeah, I think, for me, that’s one of the biggest things, is giving back. I don’t take my opportunities and the path that I’ve taken for granted. And I think it’s so important to give back. And not just to people from my community, but, like, really, anyone who needs it.

I think, like, in the Haas spirit, we’re here to collaborate. That’s the reason why I chose Haas. And so, I wanted to see everybody succeed. And that was my goal behind that. And I did it in a very, like, not the path that everybody takes through the consulting club, but, like, if people knew that I had done it, I was, like, very happy to help out.

[00:11:02] Brittany: Yeah. And I can say here, since we’re being open and honest, I am so grateful because you helped me when I was casing. And, you know, like I said, that casing, it’s definitely something that is different, especially if you’re a non-traditional MBA candidate. So, congratulations on landing that internship. You had talked about just, kind of, tuning out that noise and not having the distractions when you were interviewing in the summertime for this particular diversity initiative to land the job. I’m curious, did you experience any comments, negative sentiments from others about diversity recruiting programs when they found out that Cami got McKinsey?

[00:11:43] Camila: Yeah. So, I didn’t really experience any negative comments, or any comments really at all, that were top of mind that I, like, registered. But that’s also because I didn’t tell a lot of people outside of my close friends and the people from the consortium that I had got in it. And I think one of the reasons why I didn’t tell people was, first, because I was afraid of, like, negative backlash and, kind of, like, what you’re alluding to, that people would question. The reason why I got into this was because I participated in this program and not because of merit. And people would talk behind my back.

And then this is a general sentiment from, like, all MBAs and everyone, that, we feel a lot of imposter syndrome and I do feel and I do struggle with that a lot, and, like, the self-doubt of, do I belong here? Am I good enough? And I just wanted to tune that out because I knew that the reason why I got in is because I worked my butt off, not because there was any help that I received. It’s just a different pipeline to get into the same type of job. And so, that’s, kind of, like, how I reframed that for myself.

[00:12:51] Brittany: You put in the elbow grease, you put in the work, and you mentioned imposter syndrome. Did it ever make you feel like they were focusing on your race instead of your merit?

[00:13:01] Camila: Yeah, I think that there’s a lot of just self-doubt because we are, at least, like, from the Latino perspective, we are always seen as people that just, like, reach one level, and that’s it, right? And so, like, when you see someone that achieves so much more, you, kind of, question, like, why are they here? This is not the traditional path. And it’s like privilege, the way that I sound and the way that I look. People don’t even question who I am. Like, I was in the bathroom talking to my mom on the phone and I had some classmates come over and be like, “Wait, you’re not American?” I’m like, “Oh, yeah, like, not American.”

And so, I think, like, there is a little bit of that as well that plays into why people didn’t question me as much, but I think that’s the narrative that I’m trying to change either way. And, like, also being co-president of Alma, which is a lot of next business work here at Haas, is, like, we need to, kind of, start breaking those stereotypes that have traditionally been placed upon people that are not from the U.S. and really work on just getting through to the fact that we are just as capable as everybody else. And, like, while we do get things through different pipelines, because we are not seen either any other way, like, if we didn’t have these pipelines, the number of people in business, at the top levels of business, that look like us would not exist at all.

[00:14:32] Brittany: For those who may not understand why that is, what’s missing from these, like, marginalized communities in order to, kind of, bridge that gap for these opportunities?

[00:14:41] Camila: Yeah, I think the main thing is, like, for companies at the caliber of McKinsey, Deloitte, BCG, there is an idea that the smartest people have to come from Ivy League schools or schools that have a certain type of prestige. But then you question, who are the people that are getting into these schools? And it’s people that, traditionally, have had a lot of resources, have had a lot of money, have had a lot of education to get them into the place where they are right now. And that’s, like, the traditional pipeline.

And so, like, when you look historically at these companies, it’s pretty much, like, all white male dominated, which, okay, sure. But I think, in the past couple of years, people have started to reframe this and see that there’s so much benefit to diversity of experience and that people’s intelligence isn’t marked by where you went to school or how you grew up.

There’s, like, so much more breadth to that, that is not really being assessed any other way. And so, like, state schools, where I came from, may not necessarily, like, make the list, but the people that I went to school with are, like, literally just as smart as anybody else. And I think, when these organizations start tackling the pipeline problem and, like, looking at where people are actually coming to school and, like, diversifying the pipeline, you start seeing that there’s people of all shapes, sizes, and colors that are coming in and are being extremely successful and are actually lifting up the ideas and the face and the brand of the company to someplace that they’d never really thought about or even imagined before.

[00:16:29] Brittany: Yeah, even in the news, you’ve seen, if something goes wrong with the company, they’ve mentioned like, “Oh, that was a DEI hire.” Some people believe that companies lower their standards when recruiting candidates through diversity initiatives. What do you think about that?

[00:16:46] Camila: I think it’s so silly to think about that because the companies are not going to lower their standards and they’re not going to lower their brand just to take a box. If they were, then, like, the company would not be the way that they are and the success that they’ve achieved would not be because of that.

When you think about lowering the bar, the thing that we’re not seeing here is that the bar is already broken, in a sense. It’s not even about raising the bar or lowering the bar, it’s like you need to fix the bar, and that’s, like, where the pipeline issue comes in. When you address, like, where all these people are coming from, where all the talent is coming from, you realize that it’s not just Ivy League schools that have the best talent. Sure, they have some talent, but other people have that talent, too. And so, it’s just, like, reframing where they get that from.

The interviews are the same. They’re not telling the managers like, “Oh, give them a break,” or, like, whoever partners are interviewing you, the cases are literally standardized across. So, it’s not a matter of, like, easy or difficult. It’s like, okay, you have an opportunity because we see something in you and that’s how you are able to get it in.

[00:18:06] Brittany: We’ve noticed in the news that a lot of top major companies are pulling out on DEI programs and DEI executives. And as we probably know, some of our classmates, some of our friends and colleagues are going to be in positions where they have to really assess the bottom line and assess DEI programs and initiatives. What’s something that you wish your classmates, particularly ones who are unfamiliar with the full context surrounding diversity recruiting or diversity initiatives, knew? What’s your advice for them?

[00:18:37] Camila: Oh, my gosh, I have so many thoughts. But I think the main thing is to understand that an investment in diverse candidates and diverse staff is an investment in the bottom line for the company — if we’re looking at private companies, that is. Because of the breadth of experience that people bring in, it’s completely different. When you’re thinking about brainstorming ideas and when you’re, say, like, a consultant and you’re in, like, a strategy room, you have five people that grew up in, like, the same white neighborhood in, like, New York, right? They all have the same way of thinking because they had all the same teachers and their parents talk the same way and, like, their parents went to do the same things. And so, the types of ideas that you’re getting from these people are, like, going to be in this little circle. And then you bring someone like me that, like, I grew up in three different countries, I am an immigrant, and I’ve had to, like, do things a little bit different to, like, get through school and, like, get to where I am today, the ideas that I bring, sure, can be somewhat similar and there’s going to be a little intersection, but they also, like, bring so much more breadth of things that, like, people hadn’t even thought about.

And, like, I think that’s the benefit of investing in DEI. And I think it’s just now, we have to, like, continue to give it time because these, like, DEI programs are literally just getting started. I can’t imagine what the future of a truly diverse company is going to look like in 5, 10, 20 years from now when we actually see the benefits of DEI. But, like, people are pulling the plug too early because they’re not seeing it, like, up front, it’s an investment. It costs money to get talented people, everybody knows that.

And so, you have to give it time. It’s, like, literally any investment, any startup. Like, what is the ROI and, like, the time frame? Like, maybe it doesn’t require, like, the type of investors that, like, require, like, a five-year, 10 times investment, right? Maybe it requires a lot more and maybe it requires, like, a lot more patience. But I think it definitely pays off if you give it time.

[00:20:49] Brittany: I love that. Is there anything else that you would like to add that we did not cover that’s important for this conversation around DEI hires? I don’t know if it’s even a derogatory or a negative term, but anything that you wish you would have known or you want people to know.

[00:21:07] Camila: I was thinking about this when you initially brought this up to me, about the concept of diversity in hiring and recruiting and, like, being in rooms with people that look like you when you’re in a recruiting cycle. I don’t think I realized this when I was growing up, because I grew up in Miami, like, everyone was Latino. It didn’t feel any different. But when I went to UF, which is, like, there’s a lot more mix. And I felt like I was actually in America at that point. But the point of being in a room where you feel comfortable with the people and that you can joke around and, like, feel at home and feel cozy, this person, sure, like, they may be a recruiter, but, like, I feel like I have so much more in common with this person.

And I think that makes a really big difference in, like, your sense of security, as you’re applying to jobs and having a face to a company that you can actually relate to. And I think that also plays into the fact that people in diversity recruiting events are successful because they can really relate to those people and they can really bring their best selves forward in a way that in a normal career fair, in traditional recruiting cycles, when you see, like, this white guy telling you what to do or whatever, then it’s like, okay, you, kind of, like, have to put up, like, this huge barrier and “I can’t bring, like, my Latino, like, style or bring up my music or, like, nudge or whatever,” you know. It’s the little things that really unlock who you are. And I think that it’s really important to get people in the room that look like you to get you to perform your best. 

[00:22:45] Brittany: Awesome. Cami, thank you so much for being in this space with me and sharing just your authentic self and your experiences. And hopefully, someone can learn from it. And again, congratulations on an awesome full-time position with McKinsey.

[00:22:59] Camila: Thank you so much, Britt.

[00:23:01] Brittany: To help us dive deeper in this topic, we have DEI executive Rachel Williams. Hi, Rachel.

[00:23:08] Rachel: Hey, Brittany.

[00:23:09] Brittany: Rachel is known for her unapologetic realness. Realness, I said. Cross cultural competency and record in the game, Rachel has spent two decades in the people function and the DEI arena. She currently serves as the Chief Diversity and Inclusion Officer at The Motley Fool, a financial services company.

Again, welcome, Rachel. Tell us a little bit about yourself. Did I miss anything?

[00:23:35] Rachel: Well, I’m born and raised in the San Francisco Bay area, the home of most of the world’s technology. So, I always like to remind people about that. 75% of the world’s tech is built here, where I was born and raised. I have a huge family, which is very important to me, about 300 of us here in the Bay area. I find them to be very grounding and a good reminder of. And I think that’s about it. Go, Bears!

[00:24:01] Brittany: Go, Bears!

[00:24:03] Rachel: I went to camp!

[00:24:04] Brittany: Of course, of course. We are family at this point, yes. Go, Bears! We’re so lucky to have you on the podcast. Welcome to the pod. As we continue the conversation after we heard Camila’s story and experience, the big question is this overarching, what is a DEI hire? And does this term even have a negative or derogatory meaning?

[00:24:31] Rachel: Well, I think people who use DEI hire are attempting to make it derogatory and attempting to make it negative. Now, I think, when someone calls you something, you have an opportunity to accept that name or not. And I would suggest that anyone who is from an underrepresented background in any space reject the negativity that comes along with being a DEI hire or however people are posing it to you.

But there is also strength in being a DEI hire. Most of the research points to the fact that DEI — diversity, equity, and inclusion — is impactful and helpful to a company’s bottom line. So much research out there. You can just go and take a look. If you have a diverse board, how that impacts the revenue, if you have a diverse workforce, how that impacts revenue. And so, I don’t see it as negative, but I can see how people can turn that phrase and that wording into something negative.

[00:25:32] Brittany: Yeah. And this is actually pretty interesting. We talk about DEI hire, and it seems as though there’s a lot of backlash, even with executives. This is an area where we’ve seen it a lot in the news where that’s where they’re slashing DEI budgets. And can we talk about just why people should care in a time where society’s, kind of, telling us not to?

[00:25:56] Rachel: Yeah. Well, I know your listeners, like me, we came from UC Berkeley. You all will be graduates of UC Berkeley. And if you haven’t been a graduate of UC Berkeley, I’m sorry for you. But we think differently at UC Berkeley. We think differently. And thinking differently about DEI is something that is expected of folks who come through the programs at UC Berkeley. It is an advantage. You know, going to your class, I bet, is probably one of the most diverse classes in university history and especially at Cal. And there is richness in diverse perspectives.

What I try and tell leaders, that you should care about diversity because it is paramount to your business. If you make a product that you want everyone to buy, and I don’t know anyone who’s like, “Oh, I only want a small portion of the world to buy this.” Most companies are building products that they would love for every single human on the planet to buy because that means more revenue.

And if that is true, then you absolutely have to have a diverse workforce, a diverse team, building your product so that you’re making sure it is inclusive of all of the perspectives. And when you have a diverse team, you’re going to come up with some really innovative and creative ideas that are going to impact your product and impact your bottom line.

So, I say, if you’re not interested in diversity in this particular moment as a leader or as a company, then you’re absolutely planning to be out of business in the next 10 to 15 years. Because the world is changing, the world is diverse. And if you’re really wanting to reach every single person, then you have to be building a product that serves them.

[00:27:39] Brittany: Yeah. And I also think that, when people think of DE&I, they may consider it as just a Black thing or a Hispanic, Latinx thing. There’s more to diversity than just race.

[00:27:51] Rachel: That piece always bothers me because it’s very U.S.-centric. And so, I try and get people, especially if you have a global product and a global company, to get outside of race and gender, which we over-index here in the United States, with good reason, given our history with race.

But there are other aspects of this conversation that need to be included. One of the big ones for me is disability. A lot of the products that we use, especially in tech, a lot of them were born from trying to solve an issue for someone in a disabled community. But we all use it. I always tell people, like, I love my remote control on my TV that I can talk to. That wasn’t necessarily built for my ease. That was built for the ease of someone who has a disability, right? So, when I think of things like that and inventions like that, that is where the brilliance of diversity comes in for advancing a product and making a product better.

There’s also this conversation that we need to be having around generational diversity. There are five generations in the workplace now. That is unheard of. How are we all working together, getting along, learning from one another? I love companies that have mentorship programs, but would offer, flip that on its head. The mentor doesn’t always need to be the most experienced person in the room. The mentor could be the person who is younger, more skilled at technology, knows how to use TikTok, for example. You know, it’s an exchange.

And so, I would love for us to expand our conversation around diversity, equity, and inclusion to be more inclusive of all of the aspects of a human being, not just race and gender.

[00:29:32] Brittany: Absolutely. It seems as though many companies are starting to implement these strategic recruiting initiatives similar to the one that Camila received an offer through to diversify their candidate and hiring pools. How do you think this aligns or does not align with societal needs and even business needs?

[00:29:54] Rachel: Yeah. Well, it would be great if these recruiting teams looked at more than just gender and just race as a place that they’re looking. I used to have a boss who talked about distance traveled, meaning, it’s a scientific term. It’s speed times time. But distance travel is how much did you have to go through? What barriers did you overcome in order to make it to Haas, in order to make it to sitting in front of a McKinsey recruiter? And that counts for something. The things that you’ve gone through, the things that you were able to overcome, that creates a strong character, that creates a strong work ethic, that adds to the diversity of our workplace.

And so, I think, if we can have questions in the interview process trying to suss out, like, “Wow, this person really overcame a lot, they have resilience, perseverance, and those are the types of values and characteristics that we want to see here in our company.” So, I would love for us to take this moment while there’s this questioning of DEI policy and programs to do a reframing around the different aspects that we just talked about — disability, generational, distance traveled, socioeconomic status. There are other aspects to humans than just me being a Black woman, much more.

[00:31:10] Brittany: I think there are naysayers out there, people who are for the Supreme Court rulings or against affirmative action, because maybe they think that they’ve also gone through hardships. And I’ve even read some articles where people are questioning, how hard is the hardship? You know, what would you say to the naysayers?

[00:31:30] Rachel: The real thing, especially here in the United States, is that there is a browning, if you will, of the United States. The Latinx community is increasing — by 2030, will be a majority. And so, if you’re now being exclusive about certain aspects around diversity in your hiring, who’s going to be working at your company? And I know a lot of companies think AI is probably going to be working at the company, and we won’t need so many people. But as someone who has worked in a company that builds AI, has an AI product, I can tell you that AI isn’t ready to fully replace human beings. We still need the human element in every aspect of business.

And so, I would just ask folks to really think long and hard about, what is your long-term 10-year, 15-year strategy as a leader, as a business owner, when you’re thinking about excluding DEI practices and programs? If you can honestly say that you’re done, or you think we’ve sold enough products to enough people, then great. Good for you. But if you haven’t started to think about how you’re going to translate some of your advertisements into Spanish, how you’re going to break into different global communities, like Africa and India, where there is a plethora of human beings that probably need your product. If you haven’t started thinking about that now, you’re going to be behind those companies who have decided to double down on DEI in this moment. And there are those companies that are doubling down on DEI.

[00:33:05] Brittany: Speaking of doubling down, it seems as though there are some questions around lowering the bar. We asked our student guests this question, and I think I’m just curious about your take as well. Some people believe that companies lower their standards when recruiting candidates through diversity initiatives. Do you have any thoughts on this one?

[00:33:26] Rachel: Well, I love the fact that Camila understands that she’s worked hard. She has embraced the fact that she has put in the work. She knows. She’s confident in that. But I do get it’s very hard to constantly be questioned in the workplace, especially if you came in through a particular initiative related to DEI.

That term suggests, is that, by prioritizing diversity in hiring or selection process, that the standards for quality or competence might be compromised. It implies that, to achieve diversity, you might need to accept a lower level of performance from a candidate or an employee. I don’t know any company that accepts low performance.

I’m now a data person. I grew up in the tech industry. Please, where is the data to support this, that having a diverse team leads to lower performance? My own personal experience, similar to Camila’s, is that I’ve had to work harder. The standards are higher for me. I’m held to much more scrutiny than the majority, my majority group counterparts. So, that’s just been my personal experience, but I know it’s a shared experience between most underrepresented folks in the workplace.

The data, like I said, supports that diverse organizations innovate more. They create better solutions to problems and therefore make more money. But if anybody wants to prove me wrong, I’m happy to read your research paper on how “lowering the bar” destroyed a company.

But when I think about the whole lowering the bar thing, and the phrase is just inherently prejudiced, I think about, well, what is the bar for legacy students, right? So, we had the whole affirmative action. And look, during my time, I remember many of us marched at Cal, as a matter of fact, for affirmative action. So, we wanted it because we feel like affirmative action was trying to right some wrongs of the past, some exclusionary practices from the past. If we want to do away with it now, which the Supreme Court says that we have to, then I suggest that they look across all of the practices of universities and hiring and stop giving preferential treatment to people who, just because their parents attended that school, right? Because 25%, usually, at most universities, are students that came through from legacy. 25% — that’s a pretty high number that are receiving preferential treatment.

So, if we’re really going to look at preferential treatment, which is what I think most people are alluding to when they talk about affirmative action or DEI hire, people think you’re getting some preference, then let’s look at all the preferences. We need to look at referral programs at companies. So, Bob, who’s on the sales team, just referred his friend, Jim. Should we stop those as well? Because that’s preferential treatment. Most companies advance on employee referral over someone who applies or someone that you meet, you know, at a career fair or whatnot. So, you know, be inclusive when you’re looking at these programs and evaluating these programs, if we’re going to do it.

[00:36:33] Brittany: Kind of, as we start to close out here, the people who hopefully will be listening to this podcast, they’re going to be future business leaders. And what would you say to people who are opposed or just still confused about diversity recruiting initiatives?

[00:36:52] Rachel: I would say, if you are confused about diversity, equity, and inclusion, not just on the recruiting piece, but what it means, I would say, educate yourself. There are so many tools available to folks now. There’s articles from Harvard Business Review that you could read. There are movies out there, documentaries that are out there. Dare I say, read a book. There’s plenty of books that have been written, especially in the last couple years, by some great authors. Listen to podcasts like this to get a better understanding. And maybe, even just start with something very basic and very simple. What does the word “diversity” mean? What does the word “equity” mean? What does the word “inclusion” mean? What does justice mean? Because I think, a lot of times, we all feel like we’re talking and we all understand the terminology  and the words we’re speaking, but I’m not sure we have a shared understanding and language around some of these words.

So, I always, like, you know, it’s an old school tactic, thanks to my elementary school teacher and my mom, go look it up. That’s what my mom used to say to me all the time. I’d ask her a question. She’d be like, “Go look it up.” So, what I would say, if you have questions, do a little bit of research on your own and in your own time and listen to a podcast. Educate yourself. That’s the only way to get through the questions. I’m not offended by the questions. I think curiosity is one of the hallmarks of 21st-century leadership. My only ask is that you not leave it out of question, that you actually go and try and search for the answers.

[00:38:27] Brittany: And possibly, put things into action with future leaders. The ball is in your court, you know. And I think that, hopefully, once you educate yourself, that there is some action behind that.

[00:38:39] Rachel: I mean, yeah, you’re right. I think that education should spur some action, but let’s not take action before educating. That’s all I’m going to say.

[00:38:47] Brittany: Absolutely. Definitely, be informed. Oh, this has been so good to have you on our pod and just being able to give some of your insights and experiences and just being a thought partner with us in this journey of DEI, especially here on an MBA campus. And so, again, thank you so much, Rachel.

[00:39:06] Rachel: Thanks for having me. What an honor.

[00:39:08] Brittany: Thank you. Thank you.

[00:39:09] Rachel: Go, Bears!

[00:39:11] Brittany: Go, Bears! And that concludes our episode for today. Be sure to join us next time, as we continue to explore the diverse perspectives within the Haas community.