Our guest in this episode shows a persistent attitude when it comes to technology and business.
Orion Parrott innovated the mortgage industry by providing a digital solution to the arduous financial documentation process, then he went on to co-found a luxury real estate firm. Orion touches on the lessons he learned as a serial entrepreneur and EMBA 2014 alum at Haas School of Business.
In this episode, Orion reveals how he dealt with challenges in his startup ventures. Leveraging technology, he does everything in his power to make acquiring real estate possible for more people.
With a successful career as an engineer, what motivated you to start your own business?
“I feel like it was something that was always a part of me in a way. The reason changed throughout the years. Originally, probably because I saw my father starting businesses. And later, as an engineer, I noticed I wanted to have more influence and control over the way things get directed and decided. And I could see that things were happening at the business level and not at the engineering level in some cases.”
Why is passion essential to entrepreneurship?
“I started this business called Lendsnap, looking for something that I could grow as a scalable startup. In the end, it was not a great fit. I had a hard time keeping my passion for that. As a startup, it’s really important to find something that you’re very passionate about. And I think I was probably a little challenged in that area at the time because it really comes down to mindset. And I think you need to believe that you can have it all, including being passionate about what you’re working on.
I wanted to start a very practical business because I thought that I had more chance of success. But the chances of success were farmed somewhat because it wasn’t something that I could stay as passionate about.”
(Transcripts may contain a few typographical errors due to audio quality during the podcast recording.)
[00:00:08] Sean Li: Welcome to the One Haas alumni podcast. I’m your host, Sean Li. And today we’re joined by Orion Parrot. Orion is EMBA class of 2014, a serial entrepreneur, and a fascinating individual to say the least welcome to the podcast, Orion.
[00:00:24] Orion Parrott: Sean, thanks for having me here today,
[00:00:27] Sean: Orion, before we start, can you tell us a little bit about your background, your history, your upbringing, where you’re from?
[00:00:32] Orion: Yeah, so I grew up east coast lived in rural Maine. You could just say Maine it’s pretty much all rural as well as Virginia. I studied electrical engineering and worked in defense electronics eventually made my way to California through that where I worked on some wind power. That was my first startup as an engineer was in the around early 2010s. And I had also gotten into real estate investing on the side through my father. I watched him build a portfolio of nearly a couple of hundred rental properties. This was back in Virginia in the nineties in Western Virginia and ultimately made my way to Haas for an MBA. And I had kind of always known I wanted to start businesses, but there was a time when I didn’t really know where to start and ultimately moved over from the engineering side more into business roles and still kind of figuring out that dynamic and the interplay between those two.
[00:01:34] Sean: What would you say is the impetus for wanting to start a business?
[00:01:38] Orion: That’s a question I feel like it was something that was always a part of me in a way the reason changed throughout the years. I think originally, probably because I saw my father starting businesses and my dad, George building his portfolio of rental properties. And later as an engineer, I wanted to have more influence and to have more of a control over the way things get directed and decided, and I could see that things were happening at the business level and not at the engineering level in some cases.
[00:02:14] Sean: That makes sense. I presume that’s what brought you to the MBA was to get more business knowledge.
[00:02:20] Orion: Yeah, so it did, for me, I felt like I had studied engineering significantly. I did a Master’s in electrical engineering at Northeastern university and undergrad in electrical engineering at Virginia Tech. But I still felt like there was a lot that I didn’t understand. And for me doing the MBA was like taking the red pill and seeing the other side of things. It really felt that way. I don’t know if that’s the right metaphor. The red pill is the one that takes you into the matrix. I think.
[00:02:49] Sean: It’s definitely taking you into the matrix now with all the startups that you’ve been a part of and that you have right now. But before that, I do want to take a step back because I’m personally curious what took you down the engineering path in the first place?
[00:03:01] Orion: Yeah, I think I went towards engineering at the time as a very pragmatic move. My parents had advised, oh, you need to go to college. That was their main piece of advice. So there were some things about college that I didn’t really get. And I remember back at the time when I was choosing a career, I didn’t consider going to go talk to people that were doing those careers. So it was more of an imaginary thought experiment. And I was looking for things that I thought would earn a good income on something that was steady. And it has been, I always have had plenty of offers in front of me from an engineering perspective. And so that’s been very reliable and stable, but I also just saw that there’s a lot of different kinds of people doing a lot of different things in the world, in business at the time, thinking back, it really felt like a different reality to enter into. And engineering definitely shaped my personality because I think of myself as a scientist still and in a certain way of thinking that can be very focused on the details and having everything correct, you have to balance that, right. There’s not time for perfectionism. That’s true.
[00:04:14] Sean: So tell us a little bit more about what brought you over to the west coast from the east coast. I mean, literally across coasts.
[00:04:22] Orion: I was working for a company called Raytheon that has a lot of offices in the bay area. We do have offices in California as well in El Segundo. And so the projects I was working on for them, there was a defense radar systems and they’re stationed at different places in the world. So they call it deployment. And I was on a deployment to England for a year and a half. And that was a really great experience, work with a dedicated team of people and get to see a new part of the world. And so I was fortunate that after that, as soon as I returned to Massachusetts, they said, Hey, what about California? Would you be willing to travel there? But it sounds idyllic, but they actually have a hard time finding people that want to take on these roles. It mostly goes to younger single folks, which I was at the time because you have to pack up your life and go somewhere for 18 months. So that brought me to California and I was working at the Beale air force base north of Sacramento and did that for about six months. And I basically fell in love and I said, California is the place for me. And I could see and feel just the entrepreneurship and the creativity. And I thought, oh, this is where things are happening.
[00:05:32] Sean: At that time. If you can remember what were some ideas or things that interested you, considering that you were doing these Raytheon deployments. Heavy in hardware tech in many ways, I’m curious, like what ideas or things caught your attention at that time?
[00:05:50] Orion: Just being closer to Silicon Valley, there was a lot more of an overflow and I’d certainly been watching Apple already at that time. I’ve been a Mac user since 2004. I was there standing in line, buying the iPhone on day one and then to be out here and just find a whole lot, many more people that are interested in that world of creation. So Apple really stood out. I ended up working for a wind turbine company that was a startup. And so I did aerodynamic control systems for them. So I was the seventh employee there. So developing new technology for energy efficiency. So from there, I just kind of kept being aware of more and more possibilities. Right. See some of these startups that are more pure finance and ultimately that’s what I started coming out of Haas was the mortgage company Lendsnap. And that was designed to make people’s lives easier by making it less painful to apply for a mortgage.
[00:06:49] Sean: Can you tell us a little bit about that experience? I know it didn’t ultimately pan out, but I know there’s definitely a lot of learning lessons from that startup experiences you’ve had.
[00:06:58] Orion: Yeah, absolutely. There is a lot of growth there. So during the MBA program, since I was in the MBA for executives that did allow at least a little freedom to also start something on the side at the same time, made that a little bit easier. And so I started this business called Lendsnap looking for something that I could grow as a scalable startup. And I really considered that my first startup where I was a founder, even though I had done some small businesses in the past independently. And the vision really came from looking around at problems that were just unsolved. And I could see so much frustration with the financing and access to credit, especially for major purposes, such as a loan for a home. And I guess now I tend to think of it most in terms of lessons learned, that’s kind of the takeaway for me in the end.
[00:07:46] It was not a great fit. I had a hard time keeping my passion for that. And in FinTech financial technology, there’s a lot of regulation and a lot of challenges. And so I learned how to deal with some of those challenges, but it made it pretty arduous. And people will say with financial service startups, you want to consider that everything’s going to take twice as long as you think and cost twice as much. And it really did. It really did. But as a startup, it’s really important to find something that you’re very passionate about. And I think I was probably a little challenged in that area at the time, because it really comes down to mindset. And I think you need to believe that you can have it all including being passionate for what you’re working on. I had the idea, I wanted to start a very practical business because I thought that it had more chance of success, but the chances of success were farmed somewhat because it wasn’t something that I could say I was passionate about. And partly it was also a switch for me of switching from electronics over to software, basically a SaaS or software as a service play. And so that wasn’t an area of expertise. And so there were different technical challenges.
[00:08:58] Sean: I was just going to ask you about that actually, because Lendsnap and you guys were pretty much at the frontier, pioneering digital mortgage consumer experiences, I just bought a house. It’s still arduous. You guys started doing this in 2014, it’s 2021 now. And the amount of paperwork, manual paperwork I had to prepare and organize and send off to each of the banks was just insane.
[00:09:25] Orion: Yeah. Unfortunately we haven’t solved that problem yet.
[00:09:29] Sean: That’s still, I mean, just to shop around for a mortgage and interest rates, it just blew my mind how much work there was and how archaic the systems are. Even on their end to the point where you would expect you can upload documents in 2021, but no. They have those services and platforms, but they still ask me to email them everything I see. And I thought that this is ridiculous, because it’s not that secure. I’m sending you literally my entire financial history of my family with my wife and I, and it’s just so laborious. And then to make things even worse, they ended up sending us paper trails of things, these huge UPS envelopes of just paper that I don’t even know why we needed it delivered in that physical format, because it wasn’t even the final documents. It was just estimates or whatever paperwork they needed to send us, and ended up shredding it all.
[00:10:25] Orion: Absolutely. We chose to go down the path of serving lenders and selling software to lenders, but that really made us beholden to their rate of technology adoption, which now it’s 2021. You can see it’s extremely slow. We didn’t think we could fundamentally change how they do business, but we thought we could get them to move a bit faster. And so those were the challenges we were up against.
[00:10:47] Sean: I mean, it’s interesting to talk about this now, obviously seven years later, and maybe someone listening to this podcast will be inspired to tackle this problem or reach out to you to gain some wisdom from your experiences. But it really reminds me of the medical system, in many ways. We have these big institutions that have been selling software and systems from different companies that are not agnostic, that don’t communicate with each other. That requires patients. When we go to each hospital to submit our records into that process, it’s just frankly, very painful. And it still blows my mind that to shop around for interest rates with banks, they have to pull my credit four times, right? Why, why do you need to do a hard pull four times and then come time to actually approve it five months later? Because we were buying a new build.
[00:11:38] They had to pull it again. And I just thought, this is crazy. This is just so broken in many ways. And I can totally understand. And we, my wife and I are very fortunate to have the resources and the credits where those hard pulls will ding our credit, but it’s not going to impact it that much. But I can’t imagine what kind of impact it has for other people who are less fortunate than us. My credit score went down 50 points just for these hard pulls. It’s not like I took a loan out with each of these banks. It was just a hard pull. That’s a huge impact for a lot of people.
[00:12:12] Orion: It is. Yeah. That’s exactly the kind of thing we were targeting to solve. We wanted to create a financial profile. That would be like an identity that would be portable. Right? So once you’ve connected all that data, of course, there’s these incumbent systems in place. I think some of the friction is intentional to create lock-in just like if they get you to pay any kind of fee, you think, well, I don’t want to lose my $200 for something. Right. But also you’ve provided all the information you’re they want you to be stuck. I think to some extent, or just look at the dynamic between the company that provides the credit versus the lender, the company that provides the credit wants to keep selling the pulls all the current, each time that they get pulled. So it’s hard to break down those systems. It’s hard to change them without coming in and doing something completely new.
[00:12:56] Orion: So that would be my advice to someone. I didn’t want to be a point solution. We didn’t want to be a lender because we thought, okay, that’s not big enough. But then the disruption is just too hard going the other way. I mean, to be fair, we had competitors and we had some competitors who went out and raised hundreds of millions of dollars, namely Blend. There’s also Roostify, Real Key and some other companies, right? So the idea was good, but the execution is very challenging and you have to line up a lot of things just right. So we were able to take that startup through Y Combinator, something I’m really proud of and opened up the doors to that community.
[00:13:32] Sean: That’s a huge win.
[00:13:33] Orion: Yeah. So we had overall a great experience and lots of learning that I’m continuing to carry forward and make use of.
[00:13:41] Sean: I want to revisit something that you had mentioned earlier. It was a question I had, which was my business partner right now. My co-founder technical co-founder for Clever.fm. He mentioned this concept to me called the Dunning Kruger effect. And it’s an idea that once you read about it, it’s pretty familiar to everyone, which is that we tend to underestimate the amount of effort or skill or it’s required to do something that we’re familiar with. Right? For example, I know how to ride a bike for anybody. Who’s trying to learn how to ride a bike. It should be pretty simple, but we underestimate the amount of skill and effort that was required to learn that thing. And on the flip side, Dunning Kruger effect also covers things that we tend to overestimate, but more often not, I find that I tend to underestimate how long something should take, which is why when we delegate things to people, sometimes they take longer than we expect, or when we promise something to other people, we sometimes underestimate how much time will actually take us to do this thing because in our head it just feels like it should be fast.
[00:14:43] Orion: That’s an interesting paradigm. I can relate to it.
[00:14:45] Sean: Right. And I’m bringing this up because I wonder what were some learnings or lessons you had switching from a hardware, electrical engineering background to software, to a service, software as a service, you must have been aware that there was going to be a big shift, no matter what, but yeah, looking back in hindsight, because I think these are always important lessons, especially for, we have a lot of students and alumni that are hardware background-focused who might be looking into software. What are some things that you would advise them to be on lookout for?
[00:15:21] Orion: Well, and I want to preface my answer too, by saying that I also had done a significant amount of software previously, but just a different kind. So it was more scientific or mathematical C and C + +, and that was not the same languages or domains as building websites and web applications. So even that was a significant challenge. We struggled with the execution. I think part of the learning there, I guess for me, in my case, what it came down to was one of my choices was, well, I just did the MBA. I’m going to focus on the business side and I’m going to delegate the rest of it. And I think the top lesson learned from that is really just the importance of assembling the team. And I had a good team, but frankly I never had the right technical co-founder on board. And there’s not really a replacement for that.
[00:16:15] Sean: Was it coming there because you felt like you had enough technical skills yourself?
[00:16:20] Orion: No, because I wasn’t the one doing the technical things. So when that was wrapping up, one of my conclusions was, well, if I’m going to do a technical startup, I need to be the technical person or I need to have a top-notch technical person. And at the time I had just kind of said, well, we don’t have the right person, but let’s keep moving forward. If we raise a little more money or we get a little more revenue than we can go and put the right team in place and tomorrow never comes that way or it never did for us. So we did well, but we struggled with execution technically for most of the time and even just outsourcing or delegating some of that. Those were both skills in themselves. And so the way some Y Combinator mentors put it to me is if you want to outsource that you’re trading small company problems, which is finding the right team for big company problems, which is the challenges of delegating and remote management. So we tried those different approaches, but it was challenged.
[00:17:16] Sean: What would you have done differently?
[00:17:18] Orion: So what I would have done differently now is I would have just written the software myself. Yeah. And I think that would have been a lot better because you realize a year or two, three years down the road, it’s like, well, how long would it take me to go and learn this? Right. Like I could have learned this myself. The ideal startup team is probably two people who are both technical and have the needed business information. But that’s what I would have done differently. I had some of my classmates who advised me on that, who were also engineers. Right. And they said, oh, you’re capable. You should just do it yourself. But I went the other direction. And that’s what I would do differently.
[00:17:51] Sean: Just to dig a little bit deeper in the story, in the other direction. What did you focus on then in the business where you are doing the business development?
[00:17:58] Orion: Yeah. So I was doing business development. There’s sales, there’s fundraising, and we were fundraising most of the time. So that is easy for that to turn into a full-time thing. Not that you want it to be. You should be aggressively fundraising for short periods of time and then turning that off. But if you don’t raise enough, then you end up in that zone most of the time.
[00:18:17] Sean: Do you mind us asking what your fundraising cycle is like?
[00:18:21] Orion: So we did a number of accelerators. We did Skydeck at Berkeley, which was fantastic. So I’m an advisor and mentor there now working with some companies and we went through a few other accelerators. We went through the launch competition at Berkeley. So that’s a competition that’s open to any UC affiliated company. And as far as funding, we did get our first angel check while we were at Skydeck. Oh, nice. And then fundraising for us really accelerated during Y Combinator. And so we, after demo day, this was summer 2016 by now we raised about 900,000. And then later we did a crowdfunding round on a platform called Seed Invest. So that was in 2017 and we raised about another $900,000 at that time. So we raised about $1.8 millin in total.
[00:19:14] Sean: That’s amazing. How much did you get out of Skydeck raise at-risk high deck? Was that your first check I presume?
[00:19:20] Orion: So that was our first check and we did get some friends and family checks after that. Some angels who are classmates primarily. And so I think we raised about 200,000 after that, which was perfect for a pre-seed getting started. Yeah.
[00:19:34] Sean: If you don’t mind me asking, how long after that, did you start raising the other 700K to make the first 900K?
[00:19:42] Orion: We were focused on developing products for 2015 and then, so we did some different pitch competitions and contests, but then with Y Combinator in early 2016, getting accepted there, that’s when that started accelerating. So it was about a year in between, I think.
I see. So you basically raise a 200K, then you operate it for about a year. And then during that time, it sounds like you went through YC as well, or
[00:20:06] Orion: Yeah. Operated for about a year, then went through YC after that. And so a lot of this time, and there was a lot of personal sacrifice involved, right? I mean, I just wasn’t paying myself. That’s how we were able to go and develop stuff for a year on 200,000. And some people would just say, never do that. You need to be able to go raise money, to be able to pay yourself a salary or just don’t do it. And then there’s other people who maybe they can bootstrap. Something just depends on your personal situation. So I was able to support myself for a while with other income and we just put everything into growing the business that way.
[00:20:39] Sean: I see, okay, starting a business is never easy. And being part of the statistic is also nothing to be too disappointed about, right? Because the odds are just stacked against us in more ways than one. But it’s always humbling to hear these stories because we go in with such gusto and think that, you know, we’re going to defy the odds and nine times out of 10, we’re not.
[00:21:04] Orion: Yeah. Two things I want to say about that. One, it rings true with one of our professors, Toby Stewart, professor of entrepreneurship at Haas. And he told our class, our EMBA class there’s too many of you starting startups. At one point, it was like 20% of the class, I think. And he thought that was too many. But I guess the other piece of wisdom that goes along with that is Toby Stewart was pointing out that there’s a really big opportunity cost. And a lot of people will overlook that basically, okay, you’re doing a startup because you’ve got this idea that you think can be really huge. But from the beginning, chances of success are very small. And I told myself, well, I don’t want to be in this business for five years, without it really taking off, I won’t let that happen. But that is exactly what happened.
[00:21:52] Orion: And so you can look and say, well, that was five years of salary that could have been earned elsewhere. So I look at that as pretty expensive, but let’s call it valuable education. Right. And it was so that’s kind of how I think about that. And so, yeah, having come out the other side, it is something I’m proud of. And I guess having gone through it, I mean, frankly, I struggled and I let it get me down too far. I let it pull me down. I let it hurt my confidence a lot. And I think I’m mostly recovered from that, but still working on it sometimes. And I don’t think anybody should have to really go through that. So that’s my encouragement to anybody who finds themselves in that situation to know that yeah, it happens and you can bounce back and keep going. And you’re better for all the learning.
[00:22:39] Sean: If anything, I obviously don’t know much about LendSnap and the five years, I know a little bit about having techy prior. I don’t know the whole five-year story, but if there’s anything to give you kudos on above many things, it’s that you stuck through that long. You were persistent for that long. I think that’s something that I personally think is a huge statement to your character. In many ways, some people might call it stubbornness, right? But in my opinion, entrepreneurs are stubborn in nature. If we’re not persistent and we give up after two weeks or two months and just hop around, which I see with a lot of entrepreneurs these days they’ve gone the other extreme, right? They’ve gone the complete lean startup. We’re always going to be lean. We’re always going to pivot and we don’t know what we’re doing. Right? We don’t care what we’re doing. We just want to do something. I find them also at a loss as well. So I think there’s something to be said about persistence that is lost sometimes these days.
[00:23:39] Orion: Yeah, absolutely.
[00:23:41] Sean: This is a great segue because the awesome thing about your story is that your foray into entrepreneurship was not a complete loss. You have since reconnected with your lineage in some ways in real estate. And you have started this new business around real estate. Can you share a little bit about that with us?
Yeah, for sure. So I’ve been over the last couple of years, developing a real estate fund called Shared Estate Assets Fund. And I’m working with a good friend of mine, Daniel Dus, we’ve known each other for about 10 years. We met in California, but we shared a Massachusetts connection where I went to college and where he grew up in the Berkshires. And what we’re doing is renovating old mansions that are basically unwanted as primary homes. We’re talking about properties built by the Vanderbilt’s Westinghouse names like Procter and Gamble, where 150 years ago, it was a booming industrial area. And now it’s much more blue collar and also a center for the arts. And so nobody needs these 10 to 15 bedroom palatial homes. And so a lot of them are falling apart and we’re working to preserve them, maintain their historic nature, but also modernize them.
[00:25:10] Orion: And we make this make sense from a business perspective, by renting them out on Airbnb and VRBO and we rent out the whole estate. So we don’t turn them into bed and breakfast. Although some of our properties fit that category. But even though our current property that we’ll talk about is currently a bed and breakfast, we’re turning it into a whole estate that can be rented. And my business partner has been experimenting with this model since 2014 and we’ve proven it out and it’s actually done very well during the pandemic with people, either creating their own COVID bubbles, or let’s say having a retreat for their family where they have more privacy from the rest of the world. And so these properties are great for weddings, bachelorette parties, corporate retreats. And so people can have a much better experience. If you want to go somewhere with 10 to 20 of your friends, you can have a much better experience. And the cost is cheaper than staying at a holiday Inn, but you get to a vastly improved experience. And so we renovate these into a modern style that are places that people actually want to stay.
[00:26:20] Sean: That’s amazing. And I remember seeing somewhere that these Berkshire properties are being featured too, and Netflix is amazing vacation rentals.
[00:26:29] Orion: The show was called The World’s Most Amazing Vacation Rentals. They just launched that in April. And the first property that my partner developed called the Playhouse that’s featured in season 1, episode 6. And so we’re very excited about that. It’s been a big boost to our funding programs and we’re trying to get more of that kind of attention. Yeah. But yeah, it’s awesome to be on Netflix. It’s really fun. And people can see what kind of property we’re talking about.
[00:27:00] Sean: I saw some images of the place and it just looks amazing. These are truly mansions.
[00:27:06] Orion: Yeah. So that really reflects our style and we call it Instagramable like the current property. It’s awesome already, but it’s also painted in dark blue and Emerald green and these wild colors. But actually, if you bring it back to simpler, cleaner, white, and gray colors, it makes it much more Instagramable because the focus can be on the people in their setting. And so that’s what works today in today’s market.
[00:27:32] Sean: That’s the latest thing. Tell us a little bit about the new fund that you guys are raising for this new property.
[00:27:38] Orion: So we have a new fund that we’re doing at the property level. The newest property is called the Kimble Berkshires and the offering is live online. We do this through what’s called regulation crowdfunding with the SEC and this is our second crowdfunded offering. So it makes it possible for anybody to invest. Who’s over the age of 18, we’re excited about this opportunity to open up that investment because it democratizes access. Normally to invest in real estate. You either need to be able to afford a house, which is a certain level of wealth, or you just need to be already wealthy. And so a lot of real estate deals, you look at a lot of what are called crowdfunding sites like Fundrise and Realty Shares, and they still have a minimum hundred thousand dollars investment requirement. And so we’re excited to make these kind of opportunities available to basically everybody.
So by bringing the investment minimum way down, people can share, we also call it high resolution investing because otherwise you might have money in the bank for a long time waiting to save up to purchase a home or an investment property, but you can put that money to work now. And it is a little traditional in the sense that as a real estate fund, it has a 10 year cycle. So that money might be tied up for a while, but we’re looking at mechanisms for putting it on the blockchain as well, that would create the ability to buy and sell those ownership shares within a limited scope. So I hesitate to use the word liquidity, cuz it’s not like trading a public stock. But it’s gonna get easier. The bottom line is people won’t have to have their money tied up for 10 years and they’ll be able to participate. So that’s kind of a look into the future of finance and where this is going. I expect it to be much more common in 5 to 10 years. And so we’re excited to be leading the way on making these opportunities available to people.
[00:29:35] Sean: Right. Because in some ways, I mean really with the whole craze of NFTs of buying and selling, trading collectibles and art, the types of homes that you guys are buying and operating in some ways are very similar. It’s an asset. It’s an alternative asset.
[00:29:53] Orion: That’s right. In a traditional way. The ownership, even through crowdfunding is held as shares of an LLC, which is basically not tradeable correct. And if, instead you use a blockchain to record this ownership, you can set up some guy to lines where they can be exchanged and people can have more flexibility in their investments. So we’re excited about those possibilities and looking into that for this fund or the next one.
[00:30:19] Sean: Berkeley’s pretty well known for blockchain and, and crypto, have you been able to tap into some of the resources at ha or Berkeley?
[00:30:27] Orion: Yeah, I have. So there’s a group affinity group I recently found and got involved in called the Crypto Economics Working Group. I believe I’ve got the name right with Jamara. Yeah. I’ve been talking to those folks and you mentioned NFTs. They have a great panel coming up later this month on NFTs at Haas so they have some really great speakers lined up. They’re trying to build a within the Haas community. So that’s pretty exciting.
[00:30:52] Sean: That’s great. Well, it’s been a real pleasure having you on, Orion. This has been a really fun conversation learning about your experiences and the projects that you’re working on. We’ll definitely put a link to the Kemble house, in the description and also on the blog. And if anybody has any questions for Orion in this area or anything, feel free to email us directly here at team@OneHaas.org, or download our clever.fm app and start a discussion there so that we can pass those questions along to Orion. But it’s been a real pleasure having you on. Thank you so much, Orion for coming on today.
[00:31:30] Orion: Thanks for spending some time today with me, Sean, a lot of fun. Thanks.