In today’s episode, host Sean Li is joined by co-host, fellow alumni, CEO, and co-founder of Sounding Board Christine Tao. An exciting conversation takes place between them and Roy Ng, the founder, and CEO of Bond
In honor of AAPI month, the group tackled relevant social issues. Learn how they navigated this situation as leaders of their organization and members of the Asian-American community.
Take note of how they draw inspiration from successful Asian-American founders. They discussed their struggles as leaders in addressing social issues. Tune in until the episode’s end as they tackle how diversity helps build better business outcomes.
On creating a diverse team:
“On diversity, I don’t look at diversity as an HR topic. I look at diversity as to how to build the best possible team that can address what our customers want […] Diversity is a way for you to be successful, to incorporate the broadest scope of perspectives as possible in everything that you do […] Diversity is a business imperative. Diversity is not philanthropy.”
Their views on balancing being a CEO, connecting with employees and customers amidst movements and social issues:
“I think companies can be a very positive influence in terms of shaping, society and shaping culture […] You can’t be purely apolitical. I don’t think that’s possible.” -Roy Ng
“People want connection. People want to understand more than ever. Even customers, your employees, those things matter[…] It’s through friction, through conversation that you are able to create more understanding.” -Christine Tao
Thoughts as a founder, a member of the AAPI community, and succeeding:
“There are a lot of people who kind of look like you with a similar background. Those who are immigrants, coming into a new country, who are successful entrepreneurs. I think for me, it’s also validation. To me paying it forward to kind of fund that next generation of Asian entrepreneurs. That’s the reason why I got involved.”
- Roy Ng’s LinkedIn Profile
- Official Website of Bond
- Bond as Featured in Fortune.com
- Christine Tao’s LinkedIn Profile
- Christine Tao’s Profile at Sounding Board
- Sounding Board, Coaching Leaders for Business Impact
(Transcripts may contain a few typographical errors due to audio quality during the podcast recording.)
[00:00:00] Sean Li: Welcome to the OneHaas podcast. I’m your host, Sean Li. And today we’re joined by my co-host, Christine Tao, co-founder and CEO of Sounding Board. Our guest is Roy Ng, co-founder and CEO of Bond, an enterprise-grade financial technology platform that’s streamlining the integration between brands and banks. Roy is a 2000 graduate. Go bears! Roy, let’s start with your origin story. Can you tell us a little bit about where you’re from and what you did, before and after Haas?
[00:00:39]Roy Ng: Yeah, I was born in Hong Kong. I spent the first decade of my life in Hong Kong. I went to elementary school there. My parents decided to come to the U.S. So my mom and I first came to the States. While my dad had to take care of some business and wrap up stuff. My mom and I discovering a new country. We have few relatives here, starting to build a life here. I still remember going to, middle school and I spoke with a little bit of an English accent. Back then, Hong Kong was still part of the British colony. And ten-year-olds are interesting, right? They have a lot of opinions. This was, I think, fifth grade, a lot of opinions about, people who are different from them. I tried really hard to fit in. Football was soccer and, all sorts of nomenclature that you had to kind of get adjusted to. I think when you’re young, you’re also able to kind of assimilate fairly quickly.
[00:01:30] So, no problem with that. I went on to Berkeley. Probably one of the best decisions I’ve made or probably one of them. Most impactful decision at that age that you had to make. I was a double major at Haas and political science.
[00:01:44]One of the things that I was very passionate about and continue to be passionate about is really leveling the playing field, via immigrants or via people who may not be in the same situation as you are. I feel personally very blessed, given where I am and the education that afforded me the professional career that I have. Throughout my journey, I’ve always thought about how best to give back. That’s why I’ve been involved with Haas. I’m involved with a number of nonprofits, including one called Junior Achievement. Basically, we work with kids in school to teach them financial literacy and entrepreneurship. Exposing them to things that they may not or get exposed to in day-to-day coursework.
[00:02:25] I founded Bond partially because I also want a level playing field. Financial services historically have been, for the people who are well banked. Like all three of us, we probably get mailing for new credit cards every single day. But for a big portion of Americans and for a big portion of the world, they’re not adequately addressed by the financial system itself. And so building Bond was for me a way to provide the building blocks for innovators to be able to better address, segments of the community that may not have been addressed well, by the current financial system.
[00:03:01] Christine Tao: I think Roy and I share one common thing, which is, so my company Sounding Board is really about democratizing access to leadership development and coaching. That really stemmed out of my own experience of working with a coach once I became an executive. It’s been really nice to reconnect with Roy actually, now that we’re both founders and also because we have these very mission-driven businesses that stemmed out of our own prior experiences.
[00:03:30]Roy Ng: I still remember meeting up with you, Christine, back at that coffee shop and, Bond was an idea. Sounding Board was an idea. We were really just ideating, frankly. How far have we come, right? I mean, we both now raised our Series A and we’re looking at potentially even using Sounding Board for our team. And so for me as a first-time founder, I think, there’s really a lot of satisfaction in building something from nothing. We’ve all been executives before and, you know, helping something that’s already scaled out, refine and grow is one thing. But really birthing something frankly from zero to something it’s hard by extraordinarily rewarding.
[00:04:09] Christine Tao: I think I first tried to pitch Roy when he was still COO at Twilio to use Sounding Board. Then from there, we evolved. But I agree. I think you know, I’ve been an executive at whether it was at Google or YouTube. Then, some other venture-backed startup here in the Bay area and also a first-time founder. Certainly a lot of learnings, but it’s definitely been what I consider a learning experience of a lifetime. So really grateful for the opportunity that we get to do this. Certainly, there are ups and downs. I think, for us, that’s why the mission is important because you have to have a bigger vision around what it is you’re trying to accomplish.
[00:04:52]Sean Li: You know, you guys are a couple of steps ahead of me in terms of fundraising. I’m really curious, since it’s AAPI month, what challenges you guys encountered, As Asian American founders, if any?
[00:05:06]Roy Ng: I would say just in general, I’ve been pretty fortunate with fundraising. In fact, we have the same investor Canaan, both Christine and I. We incubated actually our idea at Canaan. One of the investors there is a founding investor. He was the one who kind of really shaped the idea in the first place on how to potentially approach this market. For me, it was an opportunity to build something from scratch. Throughout my career, after I spent a decade at Goldman as an investment banker and you work with some great companies. You get to help them, advise them and grow them. But for me, being in the driver’s seat was, interesting.
[00:05:51] That’s why I went to an operating role and building something from scratch. It has always been something on my roadmap. I wanted to make sure that, that was an opportunity. Number one, that matches my passion and my experiences. Two is the market opportunity is the right one. I was in the right place, at the right time with the right investor. We raise our seed round, and subsequently A-round, without too much effort per se. I think that space, especially FinTech, obviously our area in banking is a service increasingly gaining a lot of attention. On the AAPI kind of angle, I’m an immigrant from Hong Kong. I would say there’s a tendency to be a little bit more modest. In the many Asian cultures, I wouldn’t say every, but in most Asian cultures modesty is a virtue.
[00:06:45] I do think when you’re an entrepreneur, you need to be able to articulate and pitch for something much larger. Something that you want to happen, but may take some steps and may take some imagination to get there. I think that’s something where you gotta have to push yourself. Obviously, through my other experiences, you learn that you have to do that. I think that is probably one area where culturally, just kind of have to adapt to it. I didn’t think it was an issue per se, but that’d be my kind of first thought there.
[00:07:18] Christine Tao: I think so much of what you said resonates with me. For one, I’m Chinese American, so I’m from Taiwan. I was born there but mostly grew up here. I moved here when I was two. So culturally I feel, very Americanized. I identify with the U.S. culture, but, I still look a certain way. Then of course I am a woman. My co-founder is also a woman. There’s a lot of stats out there that show that venture capital to sole female-founded companies. Probably less than 3% in last year during Covid, drop to even less than 2% potentially. So odds and data already show that it’s very challenging for folks like me to be able to go out and successfully raise funding. And I think on top of that, a lot of what Roy said. Much of it is really is engaging with investors. It is painting the future of tomorrow. When you’re an operator, you are looking at today and all of these things, holes that need plugging and fires are letting burn. Being able to go from that to the very far-reaching long-term view. You have to have complete conviction about where that’s going and knowing you have to build towards that. It is a skill. I definitely had to learn that that. My earlier attempts at fundraising were challenging because I was so used to becoming an operator. Pointing to what I had accomplished. Using that to be the reason why you should invest when in reality, that might be 20% of it. You need enough to be credible, and then it becomes much more than market opportunity, future vision, conviction. All of these things just didn’t come naturally to me, to be honest.
[00:09:02]Sean Li: I’m really curious. this is something that was brought to my attention the other day when friends and advisors were saying, you know, I should look towards Asian funds or Asian investors. But for some reason, in my mind, I’ve never even thought to approach Asian investors. Did you guys have any kind of aversion towards that or did it just not matter?
[00:09:25] Roy Ng: It was more optimizing for credibility for the company, especially early stages. Like via institutional investors or angel investors is all-around credibility and what they can bring as you build. Right? Because you’re still in the building phase. In the earliest days, you’re not scaling anything. You’re still looking for a product-market fit. Getting the right folks on your cap table is around adding credibility and adding the right set of advisors to kind of help steer you toward kind of a business model and a product that resonates. So for me, Asian or not, that was not a huge focus. I did invite Eric Yoon from Zoom to be an early angel individual investor into Bond. He was very supportive, of it. I have subsequently after founding Bond, been associated with a firm called Hyphen Capital, founded by Dave Lu. It was an interesting thing when Dave introduced it because the reason for that is I think, there are some similarities in Asian founders. Part of it is not because they’re founders, but because of the experiences they’ve had, right? Like I was at Goldman for about a decade, spending some time in Asia and in the U.S. What you find, typically, I’m not saying all the time, is that the percentage of Asians and minorities in more of this middle management group is fairly large. But when you look at kind of the senior, most levels at organizations, typically they are not, from Asian or minority backgrounds. So that common experience does bond. A lot of I think Asian founders, because they were, either at that level before, and it helps inform kind of how they build companies too, right? So when I was chatting with Dave about it, it just kind of resonated and he also opened my eyes to the types of companies that have been founded by Asian founders. Until you actually focus on it, you realize, “Wow, there are a lot of role models out there”. That you could kind of lookout for.
[00:11:28] Not that they’re your exclusive role model cohort, but there are a lot of people who kind of looked like you with a similar background. Those who are immigrants, coming into a new country, who are successful entrepreneurs. I think for me, it’s also validation. To me paying it forward to kind of fund that next generation of Asian entrepreneurs. That’s the reason why I got involved. But when I started Bond, I did not focus on that element, directly, to be honest.
[00:11:57] Christine Tao: I think part of it is, my first angels for just people who had worked with me, they knew what I could accomplish. They had a belief in me. They were able to come in. I think the other side of that is a lot of it is around pattern recognition. That might be why that was the advice you were given. Because a lot of making that decision, whether or not to invest from an investor is around pattern recognition. So the more that there are things that help them feel comfortable, feel like there’s a shared experience or understanding. These are all things that are in your favor. I think as Roy said was it was ultimately really important to find people that understood my market and my business. How to align around that and a deep belief in where the opportunity was. That was much more impactful because then you also have investors on board that actually understand what you do. It sounds basic, but there’s a lot of times that doesn’t happen. And then the second is that it’s more like an alignment around the long-term goals and what you’re trying to accomplish. I think that gets more and more important in your later stages. I’ve experienced this, not as a founder, but as an operating executive where. If your investors have a different picture of what the company should be doing or where it should go, there’s so much friction, it creates at the executive level, at the board level. That really is disruptive to the business.
[00:13:28] Roy Ng: I would say one other thing just on the AAPI theme is. There’s always in the back of your mind that at least for me as an immigrant. Moving here when I was 10 looking to fit into the American culture. As the leader and founder yourself, you may or may not be building the right experience for your own team because maybe you’re not American enough or whatever, right? And that’s always in the back of my mind. It seems a little silly given I’ve been here for so long. But, there’s always kind of that like culture piece that you want to make sure that you’re super attuned to and being able to see folks like Eric Yoon as Zoom, not only build a successful company but earned the recognition as one of the best CEOs in the industry. He’s an immigrant himself. As he’s building the company, he’s been able to build a phenomenal culture. Not just a very successful company. People like that, I really looked up to because, obviously the context that you have, if you were building a company in a different country would be very different. And so culture is very, specific to, the country you’re in and the cultures that you’re dealing with. For me, it was very validating to see founders who also have a similar immigrant experience being able to build not just successful but culturally, superb companies.
[00:14:45]Sean Li: Everything we’re talking about is very interesting because you’re forcing me to think about, I’m speaking for myself, my privilege. Having been very fortunate to immigrate here with parents who were college-educated and they were able to provide really great opportunities to pave the way for my success. But it makes me wonder, what the struggles are for other Asian Americans, who may not have assimilated as well. It’s something I don’t think about, until things are brought to light, with recent events. These are things that I just, in the beginning, couldn’t even relate to personally. Even though I moved here when I was seven and I grew up in Michigan, in white suburbia. I always tell people the first time I encountered discrimination was actually moving to L.A. and seeing just how diverse it is here in L.A. I started seeing also just the different, socio-economic classes of Asians as well, that I didn’t really see in Michigan. It was just something that was so eye-opening. Just curious if you guys have any thoughts around the entire Asian experience in America.
[00:15:55]Roy Ng: 100%. I think there’s always a struggle, at least for me, between assimilation versus accentuating and showcasing kind of your uniqueness. Right? There’s always this balance. If you always hang around with certain types of people, is that a good thing for you? Both personally and professionally? Versus assimilating and being part of quote-unquote mainstream. Is that going to get you farther, in life? I mean, with the recent events, you could tell. I think, for the most part, Asians have wanted to assimilate as best they can and they privately kind of cultivate or continue cultural things, right? But we don’t make a big deal out of what Asians do, so to speak. We don’t force this upon, people who are not Asians. In some ways an interesting question, right? Like as people and as, well as kind of professionals, how much of this is about your culture?
[00:16:50] Should you not be proud of accentuating the differences with other people? Should any of it be accentuated too much? Is that going to hinder the ability to be successful in the economy? It’s always a little bit of a dichotomy for me. How much should I kind of showcase my Cauca-Asianess to my own team? Or to my investors? Or to your professional network? When I was in San Francisco, do I need to tell them about things like, “I’m buying moon cakes and tonight is mid-autumn festival.” Is that necessary information? So anyway, I would love kind of both of your thoughts actually.
[00:17:27] Christine Tao: I feel certainly like the last couple of years that’s shifted. and especially just because of what’s happening, whether it’s Black Lives Matter, Me too. There are so many movements that are happening now that I do feel like generally, people are more open about sharing their lives and especially at work and outside of work. Maybe exposing more of that, their whole person, I guess, to colleagues and environments maybe where they had kept that sort of separate. Because we do coaching and, a lot of that is around, creating more authentic leaders.
[00:18:05] I would think we’re maybe unique in the sense that we, really try and live and breathe that in our company, but it has actually been something that’s been interesting to navigate as a CEO because you’re right. You feel like you have to model that behavior. How do you ensure that you’re creating a space for other people to feel comfortable? Also, make sure you’re being careful not to offend and these types of things. So there are so many issues, things that you’re trying to sort of manage and dance around. And yes, I mean, I don’t know if I have an answer around it. But I think it’s just been very interesting to observe how that has actually shifted over the last few years. Then also, your own level of participation and, one thing Roy said that really spoke to me. It was interesting when all of these things started happening. With Black Lives Matter, I remember I said, “Okay, we’re going to make a statement as a company.” You know, there’s a public statement that goes out about it, this and that. When all of the recent issues happened with AAPI, I actually was a little bit quiet at first. Because suddenly I was the affected minority. So then suddenly you’re trying to struggle with like, “Okay, well, how do people perceive this”?
[00:19:15] If I go way far out because now it’s about me. So there was this very interesting dance. I suddenly felt that tension that I hadn’t felt when it was happening to somebody else.
[00:19:28] Roy Ng: 100%. Our company put out a statement very quickly after, Black Lives Movement and, everybody was very passionate about it. When it came to yourself, there was a little bit like shy this, frankly, Should I be standing up for this? Is this really real? Because my experience is not, I don’t think I’ve been discriminated against the way that a lot of people have. So I do kind of think twice. I was a little bit slower. To kind of getting out, our message. An interesting thing. Maybe it’s also a cultural thing that’s put in there as well. Where you don’t wanna overly advocate for yourself in some ways. I don’t know, now that you brought it up, it was definitely the case for me.
[00:20:06]Sean Li: Yeah, same here. My wife. Was a lot more impacted and vigilant, with the news because her parents live with us. Obviously, I was thinking, “Well, okay, this is happening.” I was definitely very hesitant too and part of it was just. My logical brain is thinking what if it’s just the same thing that’s been happening? Nothing has changed, but we have more awareness around it. More of it’s being reported. What if it’s that? I’m not saying it, is just, that was the first question that came to mind was, similar to Roy. I can’t remember ever been discriminated against. I also recognize I lived in a super privileged place in Michigan. I moved to L.A. Now Orange County, very privileged neighborhoods, livelihoods. Where honestly, people here and people where I grew up with were in my opinion, very well-educated. So they saw the world, they have an open, much more open mind. But, I also recognize, you know, my experience is not everybody’s reality. So really coming to terms with how to support other Asian Americans and especially Asian females. That was the other thing it took me a second to really think about things from her perspective. Sure. As an Asian male, I didn’t experience much growing up. But with her, she was born and raised in Chicago. She’s seen a lot of things in her days. Even when we’re dating, I remember she would tell me that it feels like this guy is following her. Or some guy followed her into a store Just weird things like that. She went to med school in Indiana. So, she was definitely in some, different places and then lived there. I can’t deny that, but I’ve also never experienced it. So I have to realize that I’m also a little bit blind to these things. She’s definitely helped me realize how we can support each other. Not just the Asian community, but everybody and everything that’s going on.
[00:21:58]Roy Ng: I think translating that feeling as a founder, too. I think Christine brought up the fact that when you’re a founder your CEO at the top, you want to not look like you are advocating for your own type of people or your own demographic more than others. So you dance much more delicately around these issues when it’s kind of your own. Because not every employee in your company is Asian. What if there’s another movement that’s different? A cause you’re passionate about? As a leader, we’re supposed to lead others who may not be like you. And so that’s always an important balance for me. There’s been kind of topics whirling around. Around the company’s role in terms of social issues. I absolutely think companies should be involved in social issues. People spend this proportion amount of time at work. I think companies can be a very positive influence in terms of shaping, society and shaping culture. I think back to my origin story. I wanted to go into law school and do policy, right? To me, there’s also this fine line of representing the people that are part of your organization. Not just your own, but representing everybody in the organization. Right? And what you should be advocating for. That’s always kind of always in the back of my head, especially, as founder and CEO of a company.
[00:23:29]Christine Tao: So recently, Jason Friedman, who’s the CEO and founder at Basecamp. There is a huge blow-up in news around statements he made. That effectively that as a company they were not going to be commenting on any social issues and that, the bottom line message was work is for work. It was interesting because I think it’s challenging for us to navigate as founders. You’re constantly worrying about what the right balance is. But the other side of that is that it’s an opportunity. Because people want connection. People want to understand more than ever. Even customers, your employees, those things matter. In terms of where they spend their time, where they want to work, who they buy from all of that. I, on one side, can understand, why he might go that way. Certainly, it’s not a choice I would make. I can understand why he maybe took that perspective. I also just think that it’s an opportunity really, for us as founders, as leaders within your company to create connection through these challenging topics, right?
[00:24:37] It’s through friction, through conversation that you are able to create more understanding. Versus abdication or just, saying no, we’re going to silo things in a certain way. Then you’ve basically sort of, remove the potential bridge around certain things.
[00:24:53]Roy Ng: It’s pretty hard to separate what happens in society from what happens at work. To be very honest, you cannot truly be in a political company per se. You live in a political environment. All your employees are political creatures. You can’t be purely apolitical. I don’t think that’s possible. I do think if you didn’t have to deal with the politics, you could focus all your energy on other things. That’s probably one of the reasons why you mentioned, you could see a reason why you want to do that. But the reality is fairly hard to separate those two. That’s my 2 cents.
[00:25:28]Sean Li: I just want to thank you guys for entertaining my thoughts around this topic, because it is an area that I don’t even know how to talk about. Because again, I just live in a bubble, as an immigrant.
[00:25:42] Roy Ng: In your company, Sean, you’re going to have employees. You’re gonna have people. I think you have to think about is how do you represent them as their leader, that’s the part that’s beyond you now.
[00:25:53]Sean Li: Yeah.
[00:25:54]Roy Ng: It’s part of your mission.
[00:25:56]Sean Li: And at this stage at this early stage, my founder, and I think heavily about finding ways to build a company with, a really solid foundation around diversity around inclusion. I mean, that’s why we’re, starting this podcasting company. That’s building Clever the podcasting platform because we really believe that podcasts can help empower more voices from people. I mean there are 40 million YouTuber. There are only 2 million podcasters. And they both start around the same time. That’s crazy. The barrier to entry, to podcasting, is so much lower, there should be so many more podcasts creators sharing their voices. So that’s our vision, but how do we actually build that into our DNA as well? That’s quite a challenge. How do you guys think about diversity in hiring as founders? Being diverse people yourselves.
[00:26:46]Roy Ng: It’s funny. I don’t look at diversity as an HR topic per se. I look at diversity as to how to build the best possible team that can address what our customers want. The reality is our customers are not one monotype. For Bond, we could enable any brand to be able to offer financial products and they offer to people of all kinds. Every company I’ve been at thinks diversity is a business imperative. It is not less of a philanthropic kind of initiative. I don’t view diversity as philanthropic. Diversity is a way for you to be successful, to incorporate the broadest scope of perspectives as possible in everything that you do.
[00:27:28] And so, from day one, we’ve tried to find the best people for the best job. With an eye toward diverse views, because some of these diverse views are the winning views. Today our company is about 30% women, for example. Not by design, we have no clues of any sort for any types of people, but it kind of naturally became that way. I do think, however, there are things that, as founders, we can do. Which is starting from the top. When the top part of your organization looks diverse, it shows that you value diversity from a business perspective. They drive more diverse candidates to your company. But my philosophy has always been that, diversity is a business imperative. Diversity is not philanthropy.
[00:28:17]Christine Tao: Yeah. I would say that I echo that. Because, one, we are a sort of sole female-founded team. That was just something that we experienced ourselves. I did experience discrimination and I’ve had experiences like that. And so from the start, we were very clear, even when we were just, a handful of people in a room to say, this is going to be important to us. Not like because a voice said because it’s philanthropic. But because what we found is me and my co-founder actually very different. So she is a white woman, but she’s older. And then there’s me. And if you asked us on any given day, how would you do X? Most likely I’m over here and she’s, on the other side of the room. But what we found is that, although we don’t agree on the how almost 80% of the time we’re aligned around the right destination. That sort of conversation is actually what allows us to usually get to a better answer for the business.
[00:29:19]And I’ve seen that happen again and again. So our leadership team, the other two folks on our leadership team are men. One is Indian, so he’s also an immigrant. Then we do have one white man. He hits our head, our sales, but from a style perspective. We’re all very different. And it does mean that you may not always immediately align because there’s a familiarity and common understanding of how to do things. So sometimes you do have to work harder to understand and listen. We found that to be absolutely beneficial for the business.
[00:29:53]There’s a real positive business impact to that. So we actively look for that as we hire and bring in folks, it is about getting the best candidate. But I think you do have to be intentional from the start that I’m going to look for the best candidate and I’m going to make an effort to increase the diversity of the candidates that we evaluate.
[00:30:15] Roy Ng: Look it’s not just gender. It’s not just race. It’s not just age. There are many dimensions to kind of building a diverse team of people with certain backgrounds. Like in Bond, there are people with more of a financial services background historically. Versus a more traditional kind of tech background early-stage background. The benefits of that, is the diverse perspectives. But to your point, Christine, the more diverse your team, the more stuff you have to work through. Because people have different opinions. I do think that it is going through that hard work, that it does come out to be a better solution. And we found that time and time again, internally when we’re talking about things. And so it may seem like a shortcut to get people that aligned to everything that you say or your vision. I think sometimes these tougher conversations actually make for a more durable, more, the best possible path, right? If you think about, as a startup, every decision you make, in some ways, at least as a founder, you feel like it’s like life and death. So you want to kind of make sure that you’re making the right decisions, right? So having a diverse team, at least for me, I found, we have to work through some stuff. Eventually, where we end up, we all feel very comfortable with. And I feel better about the decisions we make as a whole, as a company.
[00:31:30]Sean Li: I want to thank you both for taking the time to chat with us today on the podcast. This has been a real pleasure.
[00:31:38]Roy Ng: Awesome. Thank you, Sean. It’s super fun. We should do this more often.[00:31:40] Sean Li: Thanks again for tuning in to this episode of the one Haas podcast. Enjoyed our show today. Please remember to hit that subscribe or follow button on your favorite podcast player. We’d also really appreciate you giving us a five-star rating and review. Really looking for more content. Please check out our website at www.haas.fm That’s spelled H-a-a-s-.-f-m. There you can subscribe to our monthly newsletter and check out some of our other Berkeley Haas podcasts. And until next time. Go bears!