H@H: Ep 43 – On this week’s edition of the Here@Haas podcast, Ryan Scott, joins host Ray Guan to talk about his passion for design and business. Ryan explores the world of design, and his journey through working in various roles at different startups Palantir, DoorDash, and now AirBnB. Ryan’s journey began when he discovered design in high school and when he accidentally found product-market-fit for his freelancing design work. Ryan also discusses how design is rooted in business problems and how studying business concepts helps him get to genesis of the issues.
Definition of Design – “People have a misconception that design is like art. And I think there’s a very strong distinction between the two: art is really about creation and self-expression; design is all about problem solving for a business.”
On advice on competition – “I think it’s good to ignore the competition in some instances and instead say, look, there are a lot of people that do design. But they’re not talking to this person right now. I’m talking to this person and just focus on the relationship with the clients and focus on your pitch with that person.”
Prioritizing human-centric work culture: “I think that when companies look at the big picture and prioritize your people, that’s very similar to prioritizing your customers. It’s a longer-term, more sustainable way of thinking about strategy that is very effective.”
(Transcripts may contain a few typographical errors due to audio quality during the podcast recording.)
Ray: Welcome to here@haas, a student-run podcast of the Berkeley Haas community. I’m Ray Guan. And today we’re joined by Ryan Scott, a design lead at Airbnb, former design lead at DoorDash, and an evening weekend student of the class of 2022. Welcome to the podcast, Ryan.
[00:00:18] Ryan: Hey, Ray. Thanks for having me.
[00:00:22] Ray: So, you have an untraditional background before getting into kind of how you wound up here at Haas. Why don’t you just tell our listeners about what prompted your interest in design?
[00:00:35] Ryan: I kind of fell into design on accident. I actually had the luck of going to, I’m a very kind of artsy public high school, which those don’t really exist on artsy public high school, but we were all required to take basic drawing and design classes and then required to take one additional class.
[00:00:55] On top of that, there were options for ceramics and theater, and photography. And I ended up taking a really wide variety of creative classes and I worked my way from the basic drawing classes into progressively more digital things. By the end of school, I was focused on graphic design and web design, and I really found kind of an interest and a home there.
[00:01:18] And people have a misconception about design is that design is like art. And I think there’s a very strong distinction between the two. Art is really about creation and self-expression. And design is all about problem-solving and it’s problem-solving for a business. And something about that, I found to be really interesting.
[00:01:38] There was a purpose and there was some kind of measurable results at the end of that process. So, I was 16, thinking a couple of years ahead, and realized I love doing this. There could actually be a business opportunity here. And so, while I was in high school, I started taking on design clients and kind of just accidentally found product-market fit and continued doing design through college to pay my way through school, and just purely by accident, it all worked out.
[00:02:07] Ray: Yeah, I actually want to kind of stop you right there. You mentioned in high school, you kind of had this business or entrepreneurial mindset. Was that something that you were maybe born with or kind of grew into in early childhood or did that evolve over time as you started getting more clients?
[00:02:27] Ryan: I would say that it evolved over time. I didn’t have a series of businesses. You know, when I was 8 and 12 years old like you hear a lot of entrepreneurs, I just liked solving problems and I liked solving problems for other people. And that wasn’t something that I really realized until later on, like I said, I discovered design at 16 and it’s been, you know, 16 years and I’ve never looked back. It just felt like the right thing to be doing. It felt like the most interesting thing to be focused on.
[00:02:58] Ray: It sounds like there were, no, I guess lemonade stands in your early childhood. Cool. Well, what were some challenges that you faced early on?
[00:03:08] Ryan: Yeah, I think a lot of it came relatively easily at the beginning and I discovered quickly that people needed a design.
[00:03:18] And if you told people you were a designer, almost everyone’s said, Oh, I need a designer or I know someone who needs a designer. And for me, I took every single project I could get. I did, you know, $20 business cards for substitute teachers. I did little projects for the school. I took anything.
[00:03:38] I think the biggest challenge I faced was actually just kind of some confidence in high school and in college, early college, with what I should charge, what my rates should be. And always worried that if I increased my rate, would people still want me, you know. I was definitely relying on that income to get through school and trying to run my business and did not have a traditional job and was just doing freelance.
[00:04:01] And so I started just kind of running experiments and every project I would just increase my rates a little bit and started to discover that if I increase my rate from very small amounts to a little bit less of a small amount, it’s still all kind of ended up working out. And I think that that was something.
[00:04:18] When you think about design thinking, it’s all about experimentation and challenging your assumptions. And that was probably my first real experience saying, I’m afraid people aren’t going to pay me if I ask for $300 a website, instead of $250 a website, we’re talking about very small amounts of money, but at the time it was really consequential for me.
[00:04:35] And so I think that was my first experience saying, well, okay, this is just one quote that I’m giving someone let’s quote them slightly higher and see how it goes. And so that was one of the first challenges is really figuring out, thinking as a business person. How do I price? How do I differentiate myself? Those types of problems.
[00:04:53] Ray: Yeah. And I think design as I think about it now, now I don’t have as much experience or really any at all as you, but I would imagine it to be a fairly competitive industry because now you have sites like Fiver and a lot of designers compete and kind of submit their work for others.
[00:05:14] Ryan: Luckily websites like Fiver didn’t exist back in 2006, 2007. So, I was able to get a couple of years of experience before any of those really kind of took off. But even when those types of products exist, I don’t think the awareness is as universal as you might expect. And I think focusing too much on the competition can kind of cause you to hesitate.
[00:05:39] And I think it’s good to kind of ignore the competition in some instances, and instead say, look, there are a lot of people that do design but they’re not talking to this person right now, I’m talking to this person, and just focus on the relationship with the clients and focus on your pitch with that person.
[00:05:56] When you get an introduction, just really focusing energy on that. And don’t worry about all of the outside things that might cause you to pause or hesitate or have doubts. You just have to put on blinders and just focus on that thing you’re trying to accomplish, that relationship you’re trying to build.
[00:06:14] A lot of the work I never advertised any of my services. It was all referral based. People knew people who needed design and the network effects of that were extraordinary. So, I think that ultimately was really, really powerful. And if you focus on that relationship and you do a good job, people are going to introduce you around. And really that just took care of itself.
[00:06:35] Ray: I think you highlighted a great point, Ryan, in that it’s not just about the prices or the competition, but we learned in strategy class that there’s kind of an external framework and the internal framework. So, the external could be kind of focusing on the competitors in the industry, but the internal is yourself. It is your relationships, right? You mentioned the network effect and it’s also about kind of the quality of your product.
[00:07:00] Ryan: I would also add that a lot of people don’t want to pay the lowest they can pay. There are a lot of people who are most interested in paying for a good service or a premium service.
[00:07:10] You can absolutely pay someone on Fiver $5 to design a logo, but if you are serious about your business, that might not be in your best interest. And so, one of the things I did discover actually was that the amount I charged was highly correlated with how much people respected my opinion. And when I did something for free or did something for cheap, that’s how they were treating me.
[00:07:31] And when I charged, you know, 500 times more, they took me way more seriously and really wanted to know what my opinion was. And so, price was almost a positioning strategy. I had people respect me way more when I was charging more. And so, it really worked out better across multiple dimensions.
[00:07:51] Ray: Yeah, there’s different target markets, right?
[00:07:54] There are some people that are willing to do the $5, I guess, per hour projects. And then there, you know, I think for you charging a premium price worked out, cause there’s also a bit of psychology in play here, psychological pricing maybe. You started off with your own business and doing a lot of clients or contracting work. And now you are the design lead at Airbnb. How did you go upon this journey?
[00:08:21] Ryan: That’s a huge question. I graduated from college, I got my degree in design and I have, I had years of experience when I graduated from college, which was unique. I had a few contacts in San Francisco and had been down to the Bay area several times and love the entrepreneurial energy.
[00:08:37] It really clicked with me. It felt like the right place for me to be. Everyone had a dream and was working really hard towards those dreams. And that was really attractive. So, after I graduated, I brought a suitcase, two cardboard boxes, and move down with basically no plan and just faith that I would figure it out and hustled my way to that.
[00:08:59] So, I was reflecting on my kind of career trajectory the other day and that’s a combination of strategy and luck. I’ve met people who ended up working at Palantir and had no idea what Palantir was and ended up working there for a while. And then deciding I didn’t want to do graphic design anymore.
[00:09:15] I want to do product design, went to a small startup and then to Salesforce, and kind of slowly started that path into what I decided was the area I really wanted to focus on. Product design, I feel it’s very different than graphic design or marketing type design in that you are working with product managers, you are working with engineers, and the scale of the problem, this isn’t a brochure or a business card.
[00:09:36] Now you’re designing a website or an app for millions and millions of people. That was a really exciting idea. And so, I worked very hard to position myself towards that and, you know, quit Palantir. I could’ve stayed there for a while, but quit and had to be honest with myself and say, look, I think a 20% pay cut to go to a startup, but it was the work that I wanted to be doing.
[00:09:59] And so I kind of just had to have faith that that was the right ROI. And that was the right positioning. And that started me off on this trajectory of going to Salesforce and then DoorDash and then Airbnb. I think through that process, the startup I went to, I was the first employee after the co-founder.
[00:10:17] So I was number four. And then I went to Salesforce, which was 14,000 at the time. And so, I really went from one extreme to another, from this tiny startup working out of someone’s apartment to this massive, what would be, you know, Fortune 500 company. And it felt like a less entrepreneurial environment for me, but I wanted to see the end state of what every company wants to be, publicly-traded, very successful.
[00:10:43] How do those teams operate? What is it like when you don’t have five designers, you have 200 designers? How do those teams work with each other? And so that was a really valuable experience, one, and seeing how those teams operate but also realizing that that’s not where I want it to be and I wanted to pivot back to something that was more of a startup.
[00:11:01] And that’s why I ended up at DoorDash as one of the first designers and was there for three years.
[00:11:07] Ray: Just listening to that, you mentioned startups, there are some established companies. How would you kind of categorize the more appropriate role for design within a business? And I would imagine this differs based on the size of the company. And maybe you can also talk about some of the mistakes that you see companies make.
[00:11:31] Ryan: I think there are, in my experience, kind of two different types of companies. And the first type of company is a, we need to hit our metrics at all cost types of company. If we do something that’s good for the customer in that process, great. But we really just need to grow, grow, grow.
[00:11:49] Ray: Are these startups or are you talking about overall companies?
[00:11:52] Ryan: I think overall types of companies. Startups, definitely, I think they miss out on a huge amount of opportunity by not talking to their customers, but I think you see large companies that are very focused on growth.
[00:12:03] I think the opposite effect. So, one company focusing on metrics. If we do something great for the customer, that’s fine. But metrics, I think the other type of company is the if we do something great for the customer, the metrics are going to take care of themselves. And I think Airbnb is that type of company, very community-focused, very focused on the customer, the user.
[00:12:25] We have a huge design and research function to make sure we were always doing the right thing. That’s challenging in a marketplace because in a marketplace, you know, especially a global marketplace, people have so many different types of needs. And so, it’s very difficult to please everyone all the time across the board.
[00:12:41] But I think the intent there is entirely different than a grow at all costs type of company. And design really can thrive at the, what are the customer’s needs and how do we put those first types of companies. And it is a real challenge for design to thrive at the let’s just hit the metrics all the time.
[00:13:01] And I think that effective companies need to have the focus on the customer first. We hear the words like design-led companies or engineering-led companies. And I think the framing of that to me seems to imply that one function is maybe better than another or more important than another. I think Airbnb, we describe ourselves as relatively design-led.
[00:13:23] That doesn’t mean designers are more important than product managers, are more important than engineers, but that coming up with the customer needs defining the vision of something and leading with the vision of where we want to get to in a year is the right process versus doing an AB task, getting some data, then just kind of following the data because you’re trying to chase these metrics and you’re kind of changing the product up and down without any real, maybe principles behind it or strategy behind it. You’re just AB testing your way towards something. And so, I think that where designers are very challenged to succeed are those types of companies that are just going to chase metrics. It’s very difficult to make a high-quality product in that type of environment.
[00:14:10] Ray: Right. Ideally, you want to have a balance of being customer focus, but also hitting your metrics in a situation with kind of this global pandemic, you can really tell which companies have been customer focus because it’s almost like digging the well before you’re thirsty.
[00:14:30] When COVID kind of hit and we all went and shelter in place, you can see the companies that took a hit and just kind of rolled over. And then the companies that have bounced back. And I think Airbnb has been one of those companies that have bounced back. I think Airbnb did have to let go of employees during this pandemic.
[00:14:55] And it’s actually been praised as one of the companies that have handled the crisis really well. I’m curious as an employee for the last couple of years and kind of surviving through this COVID crisis, how have you seen their corporate strategy and their corporate behavior differ if at all, during this time.
[00:15:18] Ryan: I think one of the benefits of going to Haas and having this larger perspective, design is a very technical background, right? It is like being an engineer. You’re dealing with certain tools, you’re doing processes, and certain ways that you learn, but the benefit of getting a business education is seeing more of the big picture.
[00:15:41] That context becomes extremely useful in your personal life for when something like coronavirus happens and you’re seeing the fed pour money into the economy and interest rates coming down, you have an idea of how that works or you’ve taken a negotiation class. I just bought a new car that comes in handy in your personal life.
[00:16:00] It also comes in handy when something like COVID is happening, you do have some perspective on it. So, I think that the layoffs at Airbnb kind of had a feeling that that was absolutely a possibility, that the business was struggling because all travel was shut down and that’s difficult when you’re in the travel business, even if you’re an incredibly well run, travel business.
[00:16:24] So it made it less of a surprise and it felt like that’s just a realistic thing. Sometimes it has to be done. I thought the company handled it phenomenally well in terms of making it very human, which is incredibly on-brand. When those crises happen, that’s when you really see the soul of the people behind the company, what does the company really care about?
[00:16:45] There were companies that were just laying people off via Zoom and just like, all right, how do we just get those numbers back to where we want them? Airbnb definitely had some challenges to overcome, but the way they handled it, I think was very much on point with the soul and the ethos of the company, in terms of treating people like human beings and having respect for them.
[00:17:07] And even when there’s difficult decisions that must be made the way you do those things matter. And I was very impressed with the resources that the company provided recruiting got re-tasked to start helping alumni find positions in the industry, helping people land really well. And that was incredibly impressive.
[00:17:25] And I think not just for the people who had to leave, but for the people who stayed, it sends a strong message that the company will always have your back, even when things are hard. And I know that we’ve actually rehired a number of people who had to leave back in March. Now, the hiring has kind of started back up again and we’re bringing those people back home and those people are happy to come back because everything was handled so well.
[00:17:49] So I think that when companies look at the big picture and you prioritize your people, that’s very similar to prioritizing your customers. That’s a much longer-term, more sustainable way of thinking about strategy that is very effective.
[00:18:04] Ray: Right. In addition to being customer-focused, Airbnb, it sounds like is also very employee-focused.
[00:18:11] Typically when you treat your employees, well, then they, in turn, treat their customers well, and the metrics will probably work themselves out. Absolutely. So, I want to then pivot to your journey to Haas. You were at DoorDash, and then you went to Airbnb. Tell us what led you to, first of all, consider an MBA and why Haas?
[00:18:37] Ryan: So, in considering an MBA, it is not a traditional thing for a designer to get an MBA. You will see designers get Masters of Fine Arts or Masters in HCI. I think that for me, understanding the bigger picture and diversifying almost the way you would diversify a portfolio, diversifying a background a little bit and not just doubling down on design and really thinking what does, what is design trying to do?
[00:19:05] And where is the genesis of those business problems you ultimately end up solving at the end of the day, having run a small business and worked with so many businesses, it felt like a very natural, authentic transition for me to continue exploring business. I think you hear a lot of designers ponder, should I study engineering?
[00:19:27] I work with a lot of engineers. Engineers are very valuable. Should I learn more technical skills? And I think that design already is a technical skill. And what those designers are trying to solve is how do I communicate better with engineers? And if I also have some engineering background, will I be able to communicate with them more effectively?
[00:19:47] Will they take me more seriously? I think that actually because design is rooted in business problems that designers should focus more on that high-level business understanding. So, yeah, that’s something that always interested me. It felt like a very nice actual progression for me. Very few designers actually do it, but I think it’s enormously valuable.
[00:20:11] When I was in college, I had the opportunity to take some marketing classes. I basically went to the business school and said, look, I’m working with all of these clients, I’m essentially running my own business in my senior year, I haven’t taken any prerequisites, but will you let me into these classes? And I luckily had a professor that was like, yes, take 400 level marketing classes.
[00:20:34] You have these people in your life that kind of create these inflection points where someone says yes, and it opens a door for you. And so, I was able to have some introduction to some of these things and really loved the business education that I was able to get, despite it not being remotely on my curriculum. And I loved it.
[00:20:52] And so, I knew that I always wanted to go back to business school and really elaborate on those things that I had learned, but I also wanted to gain some real-world experience first. And so, I do think that Haas is an amazing place to go to class and encounter people who have a really wide, diverse, deep amount of experience in their fields.
[00:21:20] And that was one thing that was really attractive is because it’s a part-time program. Everyone’s working, everyone’s taking what they learn in class and applying it in different ways every day and reporting back. And that was really exciting.
[00:21:35] Ray: I’m sure you meet product managers and engineers every day during a class. And so, I want to kind of go back to the point that you highlighted that it’s a two-way street, right? Like design also needs to communicate with engineering because we oftentimes focus on the fact that engineers maybe need soft skills in addition to their technical background. That leads me into my next question, which is, what’s been the class that you think has helped you the most so far in terms of getting kind of the product management or engineering point of view?
[00:22:18] Ryan: Yeah, that’s a really interesting question. And I’m halfway through the program. So, we’ve just finished the core classes. I think I wouldn’t have said this at the time, but I feel like statistics with Conrad Miller actually ended up being really eye-opening for me.
[00:22:36] Ray: And I think also former Airbnb alum.
[00:22:37] Ryan: Yes, also an Airbnb alum, which probably makes me a little biased. But the examples he provided in class resonated very thoroughly with me, probably for that reason. And what I took from that class maybe isn’t what you would expect just from the technical side of things. But I realized that what we measure when we’re running these experiments when we’re changing products and we’re seeing what happens after we launched something, there’s obviously a great deal of technical skill that goes into measuring that properly, avoiding bias, extrapolating the results, presenting those results in an easily understandable sort of way. What occurred to me is that designers have a role in that statistics process.
[00:23:23] What you are measuring when you’re running one of these experiments is someone’s behavior changing. That when you make a button bigger or you move it, or you change a flow, you are giving a user the opportunity to behave differently with your product. And the statistical analysis is how did that move?
[00:23:45] But what the designers are doing is creating that opportunity for those metrics to change and deciding on how we’re going to make decisions to get that behavior changing. That’s really what web design is, it’s shaping a user’s behavior. So, what’s interesting in analyzing the statistics when they come back, like looking at the data is that designers have a role in that they are looking at that data from a human-centered perspective.
[00:24:13] And I created this product, I designed it in this way. I’m trying to achieve this result. It did or didn’t do that thing. And then the interpretation of why or why not, that’s where research can play a role. That’s where designers can play a role. And that’s where the team needs to come together and continue doing research and understanding not just what happened, but why did it happen?
[00:24:35] And so I feel like there is actually a really natural point for designers to be involved in the interpretation of the why of the data that hadn’t occurred to me before.
[00:24:47] Ray: This is a light bulb moment for me as well. I never connected the dots between design and let’s say behavioral economics, right? Or behavioral change in general. You bring up a great point in that, let’s say the famous was it AB test that Google did changing a banner with like a light blue tint to like a dark blue to see how many, like more clicks people have. Obviously now there’s a lot more experimentation on mobile phones. But kind of the concept is similar. You can just do an AB test or some sort of test, like moving a button around and you can see, is it really statistically significant of a change if we move one button from the top of the screen to the bottom of the screen, for example.
[00:25:34] And that’s really interesting. I never realized the impact that designers can have on behavioral change and using statistics as a medium to generate quantitative insights for that change.
[00:25:50] Ryan: Absolutely. And I think that it’s a perfect example is moving a button, but it’s also a very simplistic example in that there are so many reasons why a metric might change that you’re not specifically testing for. Maybe your experiment did do what you wanted to do. If you see conversion dropping, maybe it’s because of the experiment. Maybe it’s because a competitor just launched a similar product and conversion is dropping not because of something you did but because of something else that’s going on. Right. I think that a lot of times we run experiments and we’re very focused on, well, we changed this one little thing in isolation, but there are a million other variables you can’t always control for.
[00:26:28] And so how do those things start to interact? The example I like to give is I’ve seen teams launch new features and those new features fail. And we’ve done research and customers are clamoring for this, but we put it in there and it doesn’t succeed. And people say, okay, this didn’t succeed. It was a bad idea.
[00:26:46] In reality, there’s a really strong distinction between concept and execution. And so, when you have research and customers are saying, I really need this, it’s going to solve so many problems for me, you can validate the concept by talking to people, and then you can validate the execution by running some tests and then continuing to refine.
[00:27:06] And it’s dangerous to run an experiment, get some data back, and then invalidate the concept. And that’s where you need designers and researchers, the example I like to provide is it’s like you have a messy room and you’re debating whether you should add this chair to the room. And if the room is a mess, adding this chair is just going to make more mess.
[00:27:27] But if you cleaned up everything adding this chair might be the most beautiful chair in the world and it pulls the whole room together and it’s this total stylistic, you know, the thing that pulls everything together and makes the room amazing, but not if there’s clothes and stuff everywhere. Right.
[00:27:41] And I’ve used that example with product managers and it really hits. Then it’s like, this could be a great idea, but the environment for that idea has to be right. And so, designers need to look at the chair, and is this the right chair? But they also have to look at the entire environment and understand how all of the pieces of this product and all of the psychology of different types of users are going to work to pull that together. And that’s an important perspective to bring is like, we did do this task. We’re looking at this very small individual thing, but let’s not over extrapolate what this means potentially. We have to be rooted in what the users are also telling us.
[00:28:19] Ray: Yeah. Thanks for that insight, Ryan. Now we’re going to move to the lightning round questions. So, first question, Ryan, what is your favorite TV character?
[00:28:28] Ryan: John Snow from Game of Thrones.
[00:28:33] Ray: Cool! Next. What is the biggest myth or stereotype that you’ve heard about designers or just creative people in general?
[00:28:44] Ryan: I think for a serious answer, that design is like art and it’s all about making things look pretty. And when in reality design is about solving business problems and is very, very dissimilar from art in a lot of ways. From a more tongue in cheek answer, designers are known for wearing black a lot. That is a myth, but it is a hundred percent true. There’s often meetings where 80% of the designers are wearing a black shirt or black pants.
[00:29:13] And it’s just for all the education we get about color, then we’re all very Steve Jobs, even in our wardrobe choices.
[00:29:21] Ray: Does that extend to virtual backgrounds now that we’re all remote?
[00:29:25] Ryan: Absolutely.
[00:29:30] Ray: That’s, yeah, nice. And then what’s your favorite defining leadership principle?
[00:29:34] Ryan: I absolutely love question the status quo. I feel like that is what really effective designers do. And that’s a huge part of my job is going into a product that has existed for six, for eight years, and saying, okay, here’s where this is working.
[00:29:51] Here’s where this is not working. How can we be better? How can we do better for our customers? So, I love most of question the status quo.
[00:29:59] Ray: Nice. Lastly, I just want to wrap up this interview. You come, as we mentioned from an untraditional background, what advice do you have for prospective students that either have a creative background or are considering an MBA, but don’t necessarily have a business background.
[00:30:19] Ryan: Great question. I think for creatives, there’s a real benefit and understanding, especially when you’re working in design about the genesis of business problems, what’s happening in the macroeconomic environment that is affecting your business, that is affecting different sides of your business that is ultimately coming down to you as a problem to solve.
[00:30:40] Having a greater awareness is hugely beneficial. And being able to speak that language with people. Going to Haas has definitely helped me communicate better with my product managers for example. When I have a perspective about the business, they really take it seriously and we’re able to have a really productive, good conversation about what’s going on.
[00:31:00] I’ve had people ask me before, like, how do you calculate the ROI on this? Like, how do you know you’re getting your money, your money’s worth? And I think that if business school is something you’ve been thinking about for some period of time, I know I’m a big believer in if it feels right, go for it. And I’ve definitely made decisions based on that when I can’t stop thinking about something. I was thinking about getting my MBA for 10 years before I ended up applying to Haas. It was something that felt authentic to me and felt like something I was just interested in.
[00:31:31] And I think that when you pursue those things, you can’t get out of your head. Whether it’s a business idea, going to business school, starting something, pursuing something, I think that you owe it to yourself after some period of time, if it just won’t leave you, you owe it to yourself to go for it.
[00:31:51] Ray: Yeah, and I love that shall we say bright brain response. Thank you so much, Ryan, for coming on the podcast today.
[00:31:59] Ryan: Awesome. Thank you, Ray, for having me.
[00:32:00] Ray: Thank you for tuning in to another episode of the here@haas podcast. If you enjoyed what you heard, please leave us a rating and review on Apple podcasts. Show notes, references, and the transcript can all be found on our website, haaspodcasts, with an s, .org. This episode was produced by Dharmic Patel and edited by Navya Chitimireddy. I’m your host Ray Guan. We’ll see you next time here at Haas.